From Vision to Detail: Toby Witte on Modern Architecture

In this episode of What the RFI?, host Matt Brennan sits down live at AIA Aspire 2025 in Asheville, NC, with architect Toby Witte of Wittehaus. Known for designing modern, energy-efficient homes across the Carolinas, Toby brings a deep passion for detail, sustainability, and storytelling in architecture.

The conversation traces Toby’s journey from Germany to the U.S., his design philosophy, and how details, from light and shadow to millwork and railings, shape not only buildings but also people’s lives. Together, Matt and Toby explore how trust, collaboration, and client engagement are essential to creating homes that are both deeply personal and environmentally responsible.

They explore topics ranging from the importance of craftsmanship on the job site to healthy home design and air quality to the growing potential of solar energy to make homes self-sufficient. Along the way, Toby shares stories of unique client-driven projects, including designing a home around a baby grand piano, a perfect example of how architecture can tell stories and reflect passions.

Whether you’re an architect, contractor, or homeowner dreaming of your next space, this episode highlights the power of details to transform the way we live.

Key Takeaways

• Good design improves lives — bringing joy, comfort, and beauty into daily living.
• Every project is a prototype tailored to a client’s needs, lifestyle, and site.
• Details matter — from material choices to light and shadow, they define the experience.
• Trust and collaboration between client, architect, and contractor are essential.
• Healthy homes improve air quality and long-term well-being.
• Sustainability is simple — design with the sun, insulate continuously, and choose materials wisely.
• Solar energy is no longer optional; it’s a profitable, self-sustaining investment.

Memorable Quotes

• “Good design improves our lives and brings joy.”
• “Attention to detail is crucial in architecture.”
• “Trust between architect and client is essential.”
• “You cannot price shop this — you have to find somebody you can trust.”
• At the end of the process, they bring their families over because they’re proud of their work.”

Chapters

• 00:00 – Introduction and Background
• 04:06 – Journey into Architecture
• 09:45 – Design Philosophy and Attention to Detail
• 15:53 – Client Engagement and Trust
• 21:58 – Unique Design Experiences and Personal Touches
• 29:00 – Art and Memory: Storytelling in Design
• 31:13 – Building Trust: Selecting the Right Contractor
• 33:48 – Balancing Specs and Flexibility in Design
• 35:35 – Hands-On Collaboration During Construction
• 38:03 – Consultants and Specialists in Custom Homes
• 39:01 – Craftsmanship and Detail: Working with Passionate Builders
• 42:22 – Creating Healthy Homes and Better Air Quality
• 45:23 – Sustainability: Simple Steps for Energy Efficiency
• 48:41 – The Future of Solar Energy
• 51:16 – Health and Safety in Home Design
• 55:10 – Conclusion and Continuing the Conversation

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Transcript

0:00

It's in the details. Clearly that's the case with today's special episode with my guest Toby. Let's get into it. Welcome to What the RFI, I'm Matt Brennan and this is the podcast all about CA. So today we're live at AIA Spire 2025 in beautiful Asheville. Coming to this event or coming to the show actually, it was beautiful and then the rains and the heavens opened up, the thunder was coming there. Brings me back to about last year when we had, you know, the hurricanes coming in, unfortunately, and the devastation, but you know, were you part of that? Not really, no, I was far away from it. that's good and yeah, you're, you know, how the fact that you work remote and everything, but have you been involved in some of this? uh Not really. mean, we just donated to several organizations afterwards. So before we go any further, want you to introduce yourself to the show, to the audience, tell them a brief about what you do. Yeah, thanks for having me. um Yeah, I'm Toby Witte and my funny accent is from Germany. That's where I grew up, but I've been here now in the States, good quarter of a century. And I design super sexy, modern, energy efficient houses in the Carolinas. um I've built a few here and there as well. um And yeah, that's pretty much it. um I started in Germany as a draftsman, which was amazing. Absolutely fantastic uh schooling, you will, training. And then my wife is from the States, so we moved here and I got to study architecture at UNCC in Charlotte, North Carolina. We just stuck around. Yeah, mean, certainly it's there in the back of our minds right now. mean, the reason we got stuck, if you will, is because, you know, suddenly jobs came and then family grew around us. Yeah. And so now, yeah, our daughters are off to college, two out of three. And so we're going to be empty nesters soon enough. Cool. But now, of course, we have our work here. So but long term certainly is in the back of our mind to maybe enjoy retirement partially in Germany. Where abouts did you grow up in Germany? The outskirts of Hamburg, Germany. help me out. So I know where Frankfurt is and I know where Munich is. So Hamburg is on the other end up north. It's a port city, most beautiful city in the world. That's what they say at least. And it's the second biggest city in Germany after Berlin. Okay, is it kind of encroached around where the Berlin area is? It's two hours by train. don't even know how long it would take to drive, but it's closer to Berlin than to Munich. Okay, nice. Yeah, we were there last April. My partner, Aisha, I, yeah, she was born and raised in there. So her family's out of Kelsheim. And so we were down there and visiting family and we were out there for three weeks and yeah, we eventually went to the Paris and up and then down, down south, just near, just outside of Munich and all the, was like, and it was my first time. It took me 20 years plus to finally make that a dream a reality. It was in the bucket list, did a whole episode on it. And But one of the big things too, with me crossing over to that side is I wanted to check out the Normaic beaches because I have no tie and I have no family, but it was just always D-Day and all that kind of stuff is really fascinating. So I can't wait to get back, put it that way. we, with real estate prices, when we were over there too, we were constantly looking at the house, or at least I was looking at the house and I'm like, could buy a farmhouse right now. this is, just have to learn French. So besides that, but it's beautiful area. Yeah, like I can't wait to get back and if you guys go, yeah, it's your roots and everything. So that's cool. So we're like, we'll get into like those type of work and you know, and like I the sustainability and I'm really excited to dive into that. But at one point in your own life where you're like, I want to design buildings, I want to make art and out of this. Yeah, I think so. don't have a sort of great pivotal moments sort of where the light bulb went on, but I do remember that as a teenager, I was still in high school. I got interested in, I want to say I picked up this one book about early modernism in Germany and read that. uh that might've been what got me started. And I was totally geeking out. by the time I made it to the university here in the States, I was maybe 24 or something. I had read all the books that we were asked to read already. was so geeking out like crazy. And along the way, certainly, I worked on the construction sites, worked in a big engineering firm. And so it just developed over time. And before we get into like you going on your own, like you were working at these other firms, were you doing other type of project work? Like it wasn't just homes at that. It wasn't homes at all. was like I worked for instance on and so the big company, the company that I did work for three years was the biggest um engineering and construction firm in Germany at the time. always joke, they went bankrupt the year after I left. always say it was my fault. uh Went down, the bonds were there, ship had sank. But they did some crazy stuff. Like one of the projects was a new tunnel that goes under the big river there, the Elbe uh River. um I got to be on the construction site and see it's enormous. mean, drill bits the size of a tunnel, right? Going through the earth and I mean, just amazing. m they did. m and seaport facilities, and then also some multifamily houses and things like that. Is that where it started for you to go, Hey, I want to do this on my own and I want to put my laser sights on this, you know, type of market. I think that I think I always pictured myself to have my own firm eventually. I certainly so my heart is just simply in good design. I think good design improves our lives. And it just fascinates me and I love it. And it starts with everything. mean, whatever we use on a daily basis um to the surroundings we create, I think they ought to be considered well. and designed well and built well. um And it's just for me, just brings joy and beauty to anybody's life. And so that's sort of, think the buy-in, the piece that got me excited. And I think having my own firm was just in the back. I think that was just always my imagination that that would be the case anyway. I know it's really cool. like, yeah, going into the work, like, like, yeah, prior to this and coming out tonight, I saw your work like, again, you know, very active on LinkedIn, and which is awesome. I love the video is love, you know, the renderings and that kind of stuff. And then, and then going on the website and looking at it. I, and I say this was like a sincere, I really appreciate the attention to detail, because that's me, I love narrowing those, you know, when I always designed, it was always high level, let's just kind of get it. But you took all the data that was in place. So, hey, we got this land, we've got it. Where's the sun coming up? Where's the views? Where's this? And try and make those peak holes kind of looking into certain areas. and the story and then honing down to the, you know, the bubble diagrams of where we actually want a kitchen or that time that and then getting into the little details. And that's where that so came across off your website was very clear that you were tension, the details, the railings, you know, some of that were happening there, the connection details with the calm, you know, claddings, a big wine, all those things, right. And Give me your insight on that. again, the work shows for itself and I already see the passion. is awesome. So lay it out. The floor is yours. love it. The interview is over. is it. This is perfect. just, yeah, exactly. It's all of that, right? Each project is a prototype. so with each project, we have to understand the client, their lives, how they live, their dreams, aspirations. We have to understand the land, like you said, the views, privacy, solar gain, and design a house to it. Exactly what you said. And then, and then it's all about the execution, right? In the book I got to write, Supersizing Bliss, I talk about four building blocks that if you concentrate on those, it's easy to create something beautiful. one of them is just, for instance, texture is just the materials we choose and how they change our sense about the space that we are in. so When you're working with different materials, how do they come together? How do they meet? um How are they detailed in themselves? All of that matters, right? And that's what I meant to say earlier with, you know, good design. It's anything that we touch and use and work with when we can tell that there's attention was made to it. um If there was a loving eye and a caring hand that created it. We recognize that and it inspires us and makes us feel better, improves our lives. And so I geek out about that stuff. I I just, I mean, I love it, you know, and to design with that. Is there one particular detail you're like, this was the creamer crop. This is my favorite and as always, I know it's a tough one. I'm thinking about this my own head. What one did I really enjoy too? There's so many. I don't even know where to point. I can't tell you. Well, I mean, we did this one thing that was really cool where we sandwiched, we had to do a post and beam essentially structure for an entry. And we used essentially sort of steel um plates that sandwiched a wooden core. And so that post had that coolness. of the steel on the outside, but then that warm wood is coming out along the sides and you can see it it looks like a sandwich, And just to make that happen was, there was so much in there. It's like, how is that being assembled? Then about the screws with which we attached the wood to the steel structure. All of that was considered to the tee. then the question is, who's making this and how do they work and how, and then bring their expertise in and work with that. And then it had a structural, you know, reason to be there too, that had to work out. so, yeah, that was a fun detail for instance. Like one of my personal ones, again, lots, and this is one that's, think, kind of popping up in this conversation. It was for a school that we were doing, and it was for a brand new seismic upgrade. So where the ministry decided we're not going to demo the school, we're going to basically remove... structurally sound it because it was based out of Richmond, which is basically a floodplain. And they call it liquefaction. there was an earthquake, the buildings are not going to fall down. They're just going to sink into the ground. So it was a major upgrade. Anyway, so we had this massive corridor that they've just blown out so much of the school because there's just no way of doing anything. So I took it out. And so we had this beautiful courtyard. And then it was neat because was the theater was there. And then we had this courtyard and it led into the school. And it was a great area. But again, just the sun was being exposed. So we played with again, the looks and it was just early kind of days of it. I said, well, getting out the trace, which is so important because that's where it really fires you up. And it was these columns and I'm trying to explain this on the podcast for people that are listening and everything, but there was kind of like a V between it was these three building blocks, right? And it was kind of each one had its V and then, and then kind of we did a triangle because we had a lot of kind of like triangular, linear shapes and that stuff to kind of follow what we were working with and that tied into the theater that we were doing behind us too. And what we did with the roof is kind of make it there. what we did is we rotated each piece. So the whole thing just did this kind of funky, like you look down and you couldn't make sense of it. And we BIM modeled this to the T and thankfully we worked with a um steel fabricator and everything, Steel Tech out based out of Chilok there. And they took the drawings, they got it perfect. And of course the foundations were hoard first with the anchor bolts and everything, they had got their measurements. And because there was no way of getting this into the courtyard, they had to crane this thing in the sky, floated it and we have videos of it, dropped it down there a couple of whacks with the know, the rubber mallets and then they got it on and they bolted it and grouted it and all the way it was. But at the end of the day, this thing was this wave and like, like you said, it was the plate details to that and we had built in benches and again, the lighting too. Like to say, yeah, we just drew and put together. No, no, no, no. Like this took hours and then detailing it and not sketching. It's the same thing what you're saying. And yeah, it's just fun. It fun. It tells the story and it complements. oh And the people that engage with what you just described, you can tell that it is special and that somebody cared about it and it will change their lives for the better, the people that actually engage with it without doubt. Exactly. Now with, because you are designing this for clients, if you ever had a detail that you've presented to a client and they're just like, what are you doing? Like this doesn't make any sense. And you've you know the big picture. You're the guide here. Yes. No, I don't really think so. I mean, we are the guide. And so that's what we bring to our clients from the beginning. And so we say, we're here to guide you through it. This is going to be a fun experience. All these horror stories you heard. They don't have to be true. We're going to make this fun and enjoyable. It's going to be the best part time of your life. Right. And so for us to guide them through the process. so we each piece, we we develop with them and basically, okay, here's our big picture and now we're going a little more detail and a little more detail. so along the way, it's very clear for them, why are we ending up here? And so then when a certain detail comes about at the very end of that process, um there isn't a question because they are already part of this whole development and we're, there are no... why we're doing certain things. And so then, they trust that where we pay our attention, that it's not without reason. And it's more likely that we experience where they say afterwards, I wasn't quite sure where we were going with this, but I love it now that it's there. I just had a client text me, we... was about anyways, we had to paint something black. And it was very important to me because it tied into a piece on the outside and kind of whatever, there was a continuousness about it. And it added to bring in about um blurring the lines between the inside and the outside. um And saying to your, client, well, paint this black is a little odd. You might think, why do I want to paint something black inside my house? That sounds not very nice. But you know, they trusted us and didn't ask it. I didn't know that they were questioning it internally. But then she just texted me the other day and said, now that I see it, I know why. No question. Had to be it. Yeah. And like, cause yeah, know you, you, renderings, see those on, you know, LinkedIn, like again, kind of noted earlier. Are you kind of playing with renderings and thrown into like VR and doing that walking experience you play with that? Yeah, we play, we offer that one of the services. Yeah, it's just fun for them to, you know, at the beginning to kind of see how it spits out. But it is, even with that, I have learned to understand that we might know, we are the experts here. And we know how these things come together and how they work and how they end up feeling and looking like in their finished state. We draw a line on a piece of paper and we see an entire world. And they don't. And we can't blame our clients that they can't because to them it's like a sewing pattern or something. I know what I'm looking at here. And even the VR walkthroughs, virtual reality walkthroughs are abstract and strange. And they certainly don't represent how it is going to feel in the end. It's hard. It's really impossible to share the full vision with our clients. It's impossible to create that even with this VR business. Once they move in, then they're like, my God, I had no idea. And if I could just figure that out, right? How can I sort of show them, like, can I build a one-to-one model or something? Even that might, you you just have to wait and trust and then move in. I mean, my clients love their homes, they're floored there, happy beyond anything. so it works. But how could I please figure out to share that and the reasoning behind it? Because we understand how the sun moves around a building and fills spaces and then recedes. when the weather changes and the light changes and the temperature and everything. You don't experience a building in a vacuum and sterile, but rather it's alive and you have to move through it. It's not one view that you look at, but rather you constantly move around it, in it, the perspectives change and you take in a space, you know, with million little moments you're like a radar, you're scanning everything and it forms an understanding. A single picture cannot sort of portray that. And then even the VR is like, it just doesn't work. It's close. It's like I did my my own personal home and I was building a deck and everything. And again, the tension, the details and like all those things like same thing and even doing the VR and I did multiple shots because all there and the whole things and rev it in my you know, my my computer and it was it was cool. But even even though was like still like you did the VR. That's what it looks like. VR like just to see how close it was. And it still was there. But like you said, the this sense is the reality of it. And then of course, this the smell like there was extra touch senses just makes it come together. And even to like you think you've got something on the drawings, right? I'm like 99 % because I hate that I'm the professional here. But even when you walk into space, like it did turn out really good. So it's good. You made the right move. When you say that, so one of the building blocks that I mentioned that I talk about in my book is um very ephemeral. It's light and shadow. And you cannot, I mean, you just cannot sort of visualize that upfront in a meaningful way. you know, of course we can see it designing this. uh We uh change it so that the light can work in certain ways and we want to engage with it and play it and we can see it in our eyes as the designers. But to then represent it, you have to trust and say, okay, let's do it. And then experience as the thing is actually built. And I guess kind of just wrapping up this conversation about the process. The clients are involved, of course, at beginning, like it goes without saying, but it sounds like they're right through every phase. Is there a point where you kind of go, okay, go trust, go hang out, go have a glass of wine. I'll be over here finishing things up and then we'll get you involved with the construction. is there kind of, you know, are they literally just kind of all throughout the stage of it or are they like putting a trust in you? Yeah, um so I guess there's a couple of ways to answer this. So first I should say that so we are literally taking them through the entire process. That means we help them find a property that don't have one. We do the design work, but then we're there doing the construction, CA, and work with them and the builder. And then we help them even with moving in um and even live organization afterwards. And so we are there with them the entire uh way, but then we are certainly ascertain how much they want to be involved, right? If they don't have the time or inclination and it's stressful, can be, you know, keep them really at bay. Yeah. And so that they feel comfortable and okay. And then there's other clients who want to be much more involved and really care about everything. And then we invite them in um to do that and spend the time with them and allow them to do that. so they are involved in it, each one in their own way, all the way through. And we take him to showrooms and manufacturing places, doing construction and picking out things. And so it's a very hands-on, engaged kind of experience. Have you ever had a client come to you and be like, I saw this another thing or there's this artifact that I have from a special era. want you to make bring it into design. know, I'm just trying to think of like a detail like, has something like that ever? I mean, that's what we do at the very beginning. do effect finding mission, if you will. Okay. Where we want to see it all, put it on the table and we can cringe internally. Now, what do you, I don't know what to do with that. I don't know. I don't want to alienate my client. no, fair enough. We'll leave it at that. But no, yeah, but then we find ways to work it all in. But it is important that our designs respond to our clients way of life, what they appreciate, what brings richness to their life. And so we feel each of our projects are completely different from the next. And I think it's because of that. It's because we want to respond to our clients. want that the design feels as if it came out of them as if they designed it themselves as they could have. We want that. so each one is completely different. uh One cool project, trying to think of examples here, since this is a podcast, right? We're to make this exciting. uh So our clients shared that they played a Baby grand piano, that was called. And so we asked more about that. And so we ended up designing the entire house around that. And so we created essentially the cell in the center um that was acoustically kind of buffered because they are shelving around at walls and then shelving on the other side. But a portion of it is floor to ceiling panels that open up. And so what she can do She can practice the piano and privacy, you know, make a fool of yourself, right? Try things that are working and just feel like you're just in this little cocoon by yourself. But then when she wants to present the music and play to guests or the family, she can just open it up. And when she opens up, that space really becomes part of the rest of the house, of the main part of the house, including the views to the lake and everything. so that, so, but the entire house was designed around that that moment in the center. And there was this funny thing that the clients pointed out to me. I didn't realize this. Like in the first sort of sketch that we showed, there was the baby grand piano and it looks and plan like a heart. And so that was the became the like the sort of the moment sort of the funny running gag, if you will, about the sort of the heart of the house at the piano. Okay, nice. Yeah, yeah. And I mean, it changed the feeling, quality of the home. It literally brings some warmth and centeredness to the whole space. you can experience it even if it's closed off. When you walk in, you walk by that space. And then the daily routines rotate around it. And there's even a path through it so that you're always engaged with that room in many different ways. And so it's really a rich sort of center of the house. That's awesome. Were you at this morning's keynote? Opening keynote? no, I missed it, yeah. You missed it. was, it was really, really good. And I believe the gentleman's name was Walter Hood, if it remembers. Yeah. And he's a landscape architect, right? And I've worked with a lot of landscape architects in the past and everything. And I've worked with really good ones where you would say, this is the canvas. This is the story. This is the school. We have outdoor learning spaces, whatever the case is. And they really do make these areas of interest. Right. And then I've had landscape architects where they've just. Yeah. drop something on there and it's like you had a blank canvas. So what he did is he, one thing is he never repeated designs, right? Nothing like if he, again, he goes from place, he's not going to put the same bench and spec in there. It wasn't. And he, was all about the artwork. And it was, like I said, you would, I wish you were there. I wish somewhere you can catch a recording of it because it was so powerful. And you know, being African-American kind of stuff, he took a lot of that culture too and finding on the last one and I almost got into tears with it because it was so powerful. this was just from photos versus being there. And because there was a lot in New Charlotte, I think that was the location. And he was saying like, you get off the plane and stuff, get it, you know, there's maps everywhere. Well, they lost this piece of land. And this is where the boats would basically come up and the slavery and they were given tags. Like it was just a horrific part of history and it was lost, right? And never paid tribute. And basically it was You know, there was a boathouse and everything and just kind of a somewhat empty park, nothing to it. So you came in and I think it was a museum that they ended up constructing. then, but down below it was all the details. Like they did those same tags and everything. then again, it kind of benches and just reflecting and, and not verbiage of, um, this is the history. It was just left for you to ask the questions or for people to share. But where, where the turning point for me were really powerful. in the ground, uh they kind of casted these kind of silhouette shapes of a body, You know, male, female kind of stuff. And so it was concrete and then they compressed it with shale, like that was kind of the inner side. So you kind of had this three dimension of it. And just, you know, I think that was like five, six patterns I counted and they are all laid out in these kind of cubicles in a sense on the ground because that's how they came by the ship like that was the sad truth of it and then what they did they had a fountain to this that the water it constantly changes throughout the day and again with the sunset looking at the details and just wow just unbelievable and Two things that really kind of caught like everything caught me but like at that moment it was just like this is powerful stuff and one one person asked like or he told a story about you know, person came up and said, we love everything, why don't we wish you put a fence there, right? To stop people walking across. and I, because the individual was telling the story was saying, he's like, I had to tell someone not to walk across because of the history. that, and this kind of came to another question from the audience when he opened up Q and A and they said, would you have gone back and redone that in any kind of way? Would you have put signage to tell the story and all this to kind of direct it? And like at that, like I was just like, fears. was like, no way you did it perfect. and what he kind of explained it as the way that I was thinking too, is he's like, I don't want to drive people into that story. And this is exactly where I'm going with your stuff is that you you're not telling people that this heartbeat in the center of the house. It's you're allowing the story that for them to tell the story. And that was kind of this artwork as the individuals that knew the story were able to tell it and versus saying, here's a plaque, read it. Yeah. Tough luck. That's the history of it. Letting the people tell us. So. You got to find a recording of it was so powerful. I what I regret is I didn't stand up and do a stand up. Like I should have been like nobody did, but I was so compelled. And that's where you just be a courage. But. It was fantastic. So that was, if you can get it, you know, I'm sure it'll be, I know they're recording that. So hopefully you can get a copy and for the listeners of this that you can, and I'll put in a link if I can find it myself. anyways, very cool. And so I love the tension. Now let's transition into good old construction. This is you spent the time and making this beautiful heart or whatever the, you know, the individual piece to it with the car. Are you selecting the contractors? Yes. Okay. We bring them on board. So halfway through the design already, we suggest a builder to our clients. And what we tell them is that you cannot price shop this. It's oh such a custom home, true custom made. It'll cost everybody the same. They're going to hire the same uh concrete guy and the same framer or whatever. So you cannot price shop this. It costs the same at the end anyways. But what you have to do is pick somebody that you can trust. You're going be married to this builder for a year, year and a half or longer. You're giving them all your life savings. There has to be that level of trust. And there will be problems along the way that you have to feel good that they can figure it out, deliver and find a solution for it. And so that's what we try to find somebody that can do, is good for that particular job. but also simply can have that kind of trust to our clients. we know halfway through the design, we understand how they take. And so we bring them on board and they get to interview. And if they're there, they provide preliminary cost estimates so that we can make adjustments before we go too far. then they are also on board and can also um bring their expertise to the table and share with us, know, Toby, this is crazy. don't know. Did you think about my staging ground that I don't have? Whatever it might be, we can then work with them and take their input. Are you giving them like book specs then? Or is it more just on the drawings? Yeah, like saying I like again, you're saying they're all bidding towards the same thing, like the Congress be this or the materials, the cabinets and all that. Like, are you providing a spec book or the more just? I um So m it's all whatever we do spec is in the drawings and then we are there and we have learned. I always joke in Germany they plan, plan, plan and execute in a second. Here in the States everybody executes everything right away for two years and then they fix it afterwards. So I had to learn that we cannot do too much planning upfront. And so we do a lot of the um picking out of material, final materials um during the construction. And so we set essentially price pricing idea that we design the house towards a budget and understand how quick is this going to be gold or plastic? Yeah. And so then we talk about it being gold, not plastic the entire time and describe it and show it. But what gold that is now, we don't know yet. And whether it comes from this query or that one. um And um that then we do um in the field. For instance, um in a recent project we finished in Charlotte, we used this gorgeous black brick, Roman bricks, Roman bricks are essentially these long thin pieces. And so it creates a really gorgeous stratification in this wall. And this was just this gorgeous black brick and dark Mortar in there, super sexy. And we knew that's what we were going for. And we knew that there's a certain price range to that. But then we left it at that because who knows, there's going to be changes, whatever. We didn't go too far with it. But then during the construction, with the builder and the clients, for the brick, picked it out, decided on it. And there were conversations about costs and other things. um So we do spec, but a lot of it is just in person, hand on, in the process. And through that process, like again, being all about CA here, you look, guess you are picking out materials, so that's good, but are you reviewing shop drawings in this case, or is it more you are part of this process because you're so into it with the contractor and saying here is the product and, are they giving you shop drawings to review? It depends. Yeah. I mean, yes and yes, essentially. mean, each builder is different. Each client is different. Each project is different. But we certainly go over shop drawings when it's necessary. We go to manufacturing places. I mean, that's where you learn how everybody works different. And when we understand how they um work and we learn from it and understand and get ideas. Right. essentially works with their expertise. So yeah, we're there. in RFIs and you know, or is that more just pick up the phone and. It's lot of picking up the phone, visits to the site. We spent essentially a lot of time on the site. We have one house right now under construction. Bayden Lake. And in middle of North Carolina. And there, we were out there once a week. We spent a good three, four hours. there. We speak with the project manager of the GC. And then we talk to their subs as much as they want us to. We don't overstep our boundary, but you know, hey, we need to talk about this detail, how we're going to execute it. It's not working out. There's a problem and I messed it up. How are we going to fix it? It takes essentially more talking, big old Sharpie in your hand, drawing on the framing kind of thing to make it work. And so we just have to put the time in. Yeah. That is a lot of time like hands on like we would only go to like for a school much you know you know it's much grander but the end of the day it's just scaling it up right that's all really a lot of it is. But yeah, you're on there every day, or like you said, every kind of few days, you know, once a week or something like that. With that, one thing we haven't talked about is like the consultants, like, ideally, I would imagine when you, course, you're working with structural engineers, because that goes without saying, but like, are you bringing on an electrical mechanical or is that more something that you're working with the contractor and the subs? Yeah, so if any sort of specialists, we sort of introduce them to their client and to the builder. um For structural engineers, interior designers, um we can work with a mechanical engineer. Our homes are so energy efficient, um high performance that the systems asked to be actually well considered because you don't need as much power. to heat and cool your home. And so they want to be properly sized and everything. So we bring those people on board and introduce them to everybody. But then of course the builder has their own subs and then we work with them. So again, the theme of the show being attention to detail and stuff. Have you had a GC push back so hard going, I'm not doing this. I don't want to do this unique millwork detail or the ceiling or whatever, the heart and the building. Maybe way back, but there are so many types of builders out there and they're so different. They're not comparable. They should be called different names. They are called builder or GC, but they're so vastly different and they have different outlooks, different way to go about it. so by now we have recognized that the difference exists. And so we have built a thick roller decks with the builders that we love to work with. And they are they're craft builders. And they really pay attention to the detail and geek out over those details. And so they like plug in without us nerding out about it seamlessly. then, you know, it's just fun to work with them because they come to us, right? They're like, Hey Toby, we found this. We'd really like to change the detail and do this or with this material such and such happens and let's upgrade this and make it right and then we get excited. It's like to work with somebody who cares that much. It's there's nothing else. It's beautiful. That answers my question because I was like, ensuring that these details aren't lost in transition, how do you protect them in that respect? like I said, when you've got that elite team, you guys are synced, you're seeing the same language. But if you're working with someone brand new, how do you protect that? Yeah, it's hard. think it's mostly, it's a lot of this, the sale, the sale never stops. um Throughout the entire project, we have to keep our clients focused and sort of, you know, goal oriented. And then with new builders or new people, it's the same thing too. It takes a lot of hand holding, a lot of dating. Yeah, flirting. It's just the time you spend so that they feel appreciated and understood. We need to understand them and appreciate them, understand where they're coming from, work towards them. They're in charge of the construction is their building and we have to work with them and how they show up. And so it takes just time and effort to show up and so that you start working together. And then it's also sometimes it's the question for us to lower, to understand not everything will come about that we're asking for and that's okay. At the end, this is a very strong design and it will survive some setbacks perfectly fine. And so that we have to learn, okay, that's just impossible for us to ask certain things. And that's okay. And we can do it in a different way as well. It's not what we hoped for, but that's all right. I truly think that everybody that is working on this has to be proud of their work. They have to be happy to show up. um And this is not any woo-woo stuff. it echoes back. The house echoes that back when you're in it. As a homeowner, you... The happiness that you experience throughout the entire process came from all the people that were involved and it's embedded in the building and it comes back. so for me to show up and push my foot down and whatever uh demand that we heard and whatever, doesn't do anybody any good. I can't make somebody jump through hoops that they can't jump through. And so I have to just simply, okay. I haven't worked with you before. I'm starting to understand how you function and what you can do and cannot do. um Let's make some adjustments to that. It's okay. And you're right. I just said on the show too, it, and I'm just even through this whole conference too, like the synergy when she is not an us versus them contractor thing, if we can get them together and work together as we were supposed to be, it just becomes a much more fun experience. like you said, the pride of ownership, pride of the details. They want to do it. They want to come together and see the glory of this project. And it's a unified team versus that contractor is just, well, I'm just here to make my dollar. And by the way, here's a whole bunch of extras and you know, it's it's just not a good feeling. But with all of this kind of interaction, are you actually doing field reviews and documenting, or is it more kind of a more looser approach? loose. it's very loose. I know that without fail, I meet new subs every time, of course. And when I show up, here comes a dude with a drawing under his arm. And nothing but trouble here. don't want it. Great. And they don't want to, know, let's have a conversation. Fine. And what do want me to do? I've never done something like that. At the end of the process, they bring their families over. And because they are proud of the work that they did, they finally get to do something that really asked for their craft and the skill to shine. And they want to show their families. so, and that's, you know, because we let them, want them, we want to see them. Show me how you're working. me your best and I trust you and I want to learn from you. I didn't know you can't do that. You can't do that or this is available, you know, learn from them. That is so cool. Cause like again, again, talking about the story and everything and the attention again, it's all about the tension, the detail that they look back and like I said, them bringing the families like I have never heard of that actually thinking about like that is such a cool thing because you're right. They played a role, placing that one, you know, brick or something or doing that light fixture or whatever to come together and be proud. is really cool. um One thing that's come up a few times and I want to dive into this is the sustainability approach. Because you've said it a few times and I want to dive into it whether it's prefab or just the type of panels you're doing. Tell me about that, what you're doing that for the type of work that you're involved in. Well, I have to do a little shameless promotion. I'm now on the board of the Green Build Alliance. It's an organization here in Asheville that is promoting essentially sustainable building techniques, if you will. they have, anyways, so there's such an amazing brain trust here that people, the skill and knowledge and understanding is enormous. I have found and so naturally everybody, those people geek out over it. They have a hard time. My sense is often that there's a hard time of that expertise to be presented to the end consumer in a meaningful way. Something that I can do. um Give me step one, step two, step three. I understand it. No question. And so I think like I have boiled it down to a few very simple measures. um One is um just the design. I think we touched on it briefly before that we orient the house and it's designed towards the sun, the path of the sun. You either have to heat, um you have to heat or cool your home and you can make the sun help or hurt that process. And so that's simply in the design. That's one step. The other one is simply create a continuous insulation shell around your space. It's like a um Yeti cooler. Just put this styrofoam around your space to keep it cool or warm inside. It has to be continuous. There has to be a continuous air barrier all around. And then you have a choice about what materials you choose to pick. With those simple moves, you can essentially create a house that needs very very little energy to operate. And then for the last bit we throw some solar panels on the roof and it takes care of that. It's that simple. Everything else I think just sort of supports that and plugs into this. Okay, here's a new material you can use, here's a new means of construction you can use towards these goals that are that simple and straightforward. And it's nothing more to it, that's that. And so everything you can ask, everything you do, it can be around that. Right. And so um what is my detail um to have an insulation underneath my concrete slab, let's say, and it comes out and finds its way into the wall. How can we have a continuous insulation, even though I have studs everywhere in my walls? So those are then details questions that I wreck my brain about, but then I work with the builders to execute it. And then it's a question, okay, so what are the materials we choose? Because where are they sourced? How are they produced? How energy intensive are they in their production and their delivery and their install? So these moments are all serving the same effort. We had a continuous installation, continuous air barrier, designed to the sun. End of story. Love it. I absolutely love it. That is so cool. Yeah. yeah, you mentioned the solar. Have you been like the way you were explaining it? you you've you've of course you've heard of passive house and stuff like that. So this is this kind of like a passive house is just certified or is it? Exactly. There are so many different programs out there, certifications, passive houses, of them LEED and whatnot. Green Build Alliance has their own system. And they're great because they are um pushing people to push certain buttons, To check certain checkboxes. um But it occurred to me the other day that it almost makes it a little bit cumbersome, if you will. There is no reason not to do this. Just simply build it, just simply design and build it right. What's the big deal? I don't understand. so we can get lost in these gimmicks. We can be lost. I'm doing now my passive house. certification and so I have to follow all these things and maybe I grumble or moan about certain why do we have to do XYZ or something and then I don't get my checkmark because I failed a certain something or another. can become so by no means do I want to talk about bad about these processes because they're great and then we owe to them actually the industry to change. Yes, I think they are there because it's so hard for this industry to change. m And so that's really where my frustration is. It's like, why does it have to be so hard, people? Stop building crappy things. It's not that difficult. And like, like I've been to Arizona and all these places and like, know, always again, I'm one of those, I just zero into the details and I'm driving by these subdivisions as you're on the highway and you're like, one solar panel, five minutes later, another solar panel. Like, what are you doing guys? Take advantage of the sun. You get it all year round. You can be free electricity and selling it back to the grid and And It's going to uh$14,000, $15,000. Well, I would get five of that automatically back. So it would cost me 10 grand out of my pocket, but they were offering a 10 year loan interest free. So in the end, was like a hundred bucks a month. And then at the end of the day, this was paying back 70%. So in the end, I'm disappointed the project didn't go through because I ended up selling the place and moving on. like, why are people not taking part of that? I simply don't understand. Even without any subsidies, the subsidies forced the solar industries to become much more efficient and better. The solar panels and insulation have become cheaper and cheaper and better and better. Now we are at a point where, so like we are right now, you essentially, even with such great support from your government, we are... you can get your energy, your solar panels for free. Okay. Consider this, if you pay for your house through a mortgage, m you have to pay for your solar panels and so your mortgage payment goes up a little bit. Yeah. But your energy bill goes down. That's right. And so we are at the point where this is actually a parity where that means at no extra cost do you use the solar energy and not the energy from a non-renewable resource. not only that, now we are at that point, we are at that cusp where soon enough you will be making money having your own little electric plant on the roof. You actually will make money, you will get money for the energy you produce above your own needs. It's crazy when you think about that. What's the question? How should I have a solar panel and a story? And then reduce the load of what you need, right? Just reduce the need for the electricity, design it better, build it better. So you need less energy to run it. Exactly. that is like, yeah, a hundred percent. Because what you're doing is yes, you are putting a little bit more money up front, but it makes sense. You're getting a better product entity, you're getting a better comfort level and you're not thrown away at that every month utility bill. And on the long-term, like it makes no sense. And like, and if you do the math and look at the numbers, like you could probably look at your pay, paybacks, you know, five, 10 years. Well, if you're going to be there for 20 years, well, now you're really living the dream. Exactly. Yeah, 100%. I mean, to that point, it's also important to say that when you do all of this, you simply design and build better homes. Yeah. And so they are making your life physically better. The air quality uh increases tremendously. mean, 99 % of the houses around here, they sit on these crawl spaces. you have God knows what kind of uh vapors coming through. ah I mean, they're just unhealthy homes. mean, they're essentially cancer machines as far as I'm concerned. And it takes very little to just consider how you build, how you design your home, do it right. And suddenly you are in a healthy and literally in a healthy environment. And that's almost like if you're not in it for any sort of, know, uh if you're climate change denier. There's other reasons why you should be doing this, why you should be designing your house right and build it right. Simply it's for your own health and the health for your children. Plus this house will last longer, stand up against time longer. You can pass it on to your children and they have something they enjoy and not something they have to fix every five seconds and lose money on. You know, you're absolutely right. that's, I was gonna, you're talking about the crawl space. You guys don't have radon gas or do you up here? You know what I'm talking about. some areas in North Carolina and South Carolina do have some radon. In the Charlotte area not so much, but here in the mountains in some areas certainly. Yeah. like saying back home, like we've got, you know, we have to be right on, you know, basically the fan and do the testing and, know, do it as a thing. Cause it's one those things you just don't see. And it just slowly kills you so much faster. And again, being proactive and like you said, the lack of fixing and... uh can't even, you know, I'm going to get excited when I talk about this stuff. for instance, um the, we, most of us park cars in garages as we come home. They're part of the... If that, yeah. Fair enough. They got a clean garage. They're parking in. I guess there's very few people there. But so if you do park your car in the garage, your engine is running. And in most cases, there is no true air barrier between your living space and the garage. And the air conditioning is running or the heater is running, and it sucks. It needs to suck fresh air into the system. And it sucks it through every nook and cranny it can find. Every hole in your wall, everywhere, it sucks in air. It sucks in air from the garage. These badly designed built houses, suck in the fumes of your car that is parking in the garage into the house. And you're breathing that in and out and then it gets circulated through the system for a little while before it dissipates. treat like even though it's like attached garage exactly what you're explaining, but basically your vapor barrier is, it is that and then you've got weather seal, but it's still. But it has to exactly right. It has to be done right. every, literally every hole has to be plugged, if you will. Especially, you know, if you have the entire wall between the garage and your living space covered with an air barrier, and then you have this one little hole. It just sucks it through there twice as heavy. And it'll find its way inside your house. When you have a continuous air barrier, you have a continuous installation, a continuous air barrier, you have it between your living space and the garage, you actually might survive living in your home. I like that. Might survive. think, well, I think because we're coming up the hour, I want to come back and do a part two and get into the system because we haven't talked about the modular and the prefab and like we've talked, we've just talked about the tip of the iceberg with this and I'm jazzed up with this too. So I think we should come back and do this again when, you know, yeah, I'll fly home and let's do it virtually and that stuff. But I want to talk more about the details because it's, I think the world just needs to hear it. They need to hear that it's cheaper. to put solar on versus not just by paying your standard utility bills. as we're wrapping this up, thank you so much for doing this. This has been a blast. I'm glad we made, can make this work, me coming out to directly out to Asheville, us connecting in this workspace of yours. Where can we find you? Where can the audience find you, your work to connect? I appreciate that. Thank you for having me on first of all. But yes, so my company is called Vitte Haus. So that's W-I-T-T-E and then Haus spelled in German. so there's a website, there's Instagram, LinkedIn, there's a YouTube channel. I've written a book, Supersizing Bliss that has its own website, supersizingbliss.com. And so there's if you can't not find myself and my work. Okay, now I'm going to embarrass myself. uh My wife joined me on the trip and being here in Asheville for the conference and uh there's architects everywhere in downtown Asheville. walk around with the Lenniots. So you happen to talk to them. She was wondering, well, how do they find you? And she goes on the internet and puts my name in there. And there was just like page after page of stuff. And there are so many articles and so many. There's a Wikipedia entry. was especially proud of that. That's pretty exciting. I'm curious for myself. But no, but anyway, this is about you. Yeah, so yeah, you can you cannot not find me if you if you try. So no, will pull links in the show notes and everything. this is it. But thank you again. I want to do part two. Like, cause I don't want to talk about sustainability. I want to really, really kind of go through your book. I want to grab a copy of my, you for myself too. And let's do it again. Awesome. So thanks for being on the show and architects keep designing and contractors keep making those blueprints reality. We'll see you on the next one.