Enhancing Educational Facilities through Construction Management

In this episode, Matt Brennan interviews Frank Geyer, a seasoned professional in construction management, who shares his extensive career journey and insights into the field. They discuss the importance of collaboration, the philosophy behind construction management as an agent, and the successes achieved in seismic mitigation projects within school districts. Frank emphasizes the need for determination and teamwork in overcoming challenges, as well as the benefits of pre-qualifying trades to ensure quality in construction projects. The conversation also touches on the pros and cons of construction management, providing a comprehensive overview of its impact on project success. In this conversation, the speakers delve into the intricacies of construction management, particularly focusing on the role of operational efficiency, collaboration, and the importance of reducing distractions in educational environments. They discuss the wishlist approach to project design, the significance of involving construction managers early in the process, and the benefits of a collaborative team dynamic. The conversation also touches on practical tips for successfully implementing construction management as an agent, emphasizing the need for a hands-on approach and strong relationships within the project team.

Takeaways

• Frank Geyer has over 50 years of experience in construction.
• He emphasizes the importance of collaboration in construction projects.
• Construction management as agent allows for shared risk and reward.
• Seismic mitigation projects in Delta School District were completed under budget and on time.
• Pre-qualifying trades leads to better project outcomes.
• He believes in having a fun and inclusive team environment.
• Quick decision-making is crucial in construction management.
• Construction management can lead to more creativity and efficiency in projects.
• Frank's legacy is focused on the impact on students and communities. Operational efficiency is key in construction management.
• Involving construction managers early aids in project planning.
• Maintaining a focus on budget is crucial for project viability.
• Hands-on involvement from owners can lead to better project outcomes.

Chapters

• 00:00 - Introduction to Construction Management and Career Journey
• 02:59 - Transitioning Through Various Roles in Construction
• 05:49 - Seismic Mitigation Success in Delta School District
• 09:01 - The Philosophy of Construction Management as Agent
• 11:58 - Challenges and Achievements in Richmond School District
• 14:50 - Legacy and Collaboration in Construction Projects
• 18:09 - Understanding Construction Management: Definitions and Benefits
• 21:03 - The Role of Construction Managers in Project Success
• 23:54 - Pros and Cons of Construction Management as Agent
• 27:09 - Achieving Quality and Efficiency in Construction Projects
• 32:15 - Designing with Purpose: The Wishlist Approach
• 35:11 - Operational Efficiency in Construction Management
• 38:20 - Enhancing Learning Environments: Reducing Distractions
• 41:52 - The Role of Collaboration in Project Management
• 47:50 - Navigating the Construction Phase: Roles and Responsibilities
• 57:39 - Tips for Successful Construction Management as Agent

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Transcript

0:00

schools, construction management, and a very special guest. Let's get into it. Welcome to What the RFI. I'm Matt Brennan and this is the podcast all about CA. Today, we're literally live on location in a very beautiful home. And I'm with your with a very special friend, Frank Geier. Frank, why don't you introduce yourself? Well, thanks for having me on, Matt. I'm a huge fan of your show. Yeah. So what's my story? Well, I've been in construction pretty much my whole life because my father was a master carpenter and a general superintendent. I basically had me pulling nails and stacking boards at a very early age. I've been in paid positions for the last 50 years. It's hard to believe, but it's been 50 years working weekends and summers during high school and university. with a major road building contractor who really gave me my first career start when I graduated from UBC in 1984 as an assistant project manager for at the time one of the largest projects in BC, which was the CP rail double tracking through Rogers Pass. So I did that for a few years, but then the company due to losing more more work to non-union companies, Decided to wind down operations and let a lot of the younger guys go. But I was very lucky to bounce back and I was hired by Transport Canada as their youngest project manager in the Pacific region with our air transportation group. And they started out giving me typical road waters who were civil engineering jobs, because that's what I am, a civil engineer. And eventually they moved me on to facility. development and starting with the Terrace Airport Fire Hall and Maintenance Facility, which was, it was awesome. It was a great, it was my favorite project until later in my career. be worthy going why why civil engineer? Why would that intrigue you from the Well, I think it was when I was in, when I was working weekends and summers and I, while house building was, was important, I didn't see myself as an architectural type because I'm too, I overanalyze everything. And so as an engineer, I, and I like to problem solve stuff. So as a civil engineer, it was the fastest way for me to become a construction superintendent in heavy road construction. And that's why I chose that path with construction management sprinkled in. And I was very fortunate that my last year at UBC as a student, they offered construction management as a minor. Right. So you just carried on it like again, even though that's with the intention, you had no idea that that's where you're to go to. And it just kind of blossomed. That's cool. yeah. Then, no. So like I said, I was with Transport Canada for four years and then I managed to get a job right here in Surrey where I live and I worked as a lifeguard. I worked as a rink rat at Cloverdale Arena and I figured, Hey, let's work for the city. And I was their first project manager hired in their facilities group. And over seven years, I did all sorts of projects, fire halls, but the crowning achievement for me was the South Surrey Ice Arena, which was one of the first projects I did for the city. And it was really cool because it was the largest free spanning, parallel structure in the world at that time. And that was in about 94. And, but it was, it was great. it was a great run, but I found that I needed more of a challenge. And so I went to high tech for a couple of years. decided to steer away from the public sector and got a job as a director of facilities for a high tech firm out of Burnaby. And, you know, I did that for a little while, but it just, I realized it wasn't for me. So I took a, I took a step back and became an associate director back at UBC and plant operations. And I got to start. the new construction office project services, it was called. I think it's still called that. but I got to start that and I got to build from the ground up, hiring project managers, taking over the design office because they had architects and, in-house technicians, but they were a little, they were, they were a little out of sync. And so they, took them over and we became a design build office. And our job was to make money by doing projects for departments and the revenue we would get would augment maintenance. And just when we broke even, I decided to make another career move. It was killing me. Driving to UBC every day from Cloverdale. And that was probably when traffic was light. Now, today would be a different story entirely. might as just fly there. But I, yeah, exactly. But I swore I would never go through the Bassey tunnel ever again after that. But little did I know later in my career, I would. But no, I had a great opportunity offered to me. I wanted to stay in education, but UBC was a very complex, very, it was a large operation. And I felt that I couldn't make enough of a impact when it came to decision-making. with regards to where the money was going towards projects or going to maintenance. So when I had the opportunity to apply for the job in Delta School District as their director of facilities, I jumped at it and basically put everything I had into it. luckily I got the job and I said, I'd probably do this for five years while it turned into 15 years. Yeah, so this was like 17 years ago then I guess. 22. Yeah, because I was in Richmond when we were getting into that part of the story here. That was 20. Yeah. was 22 years ago. It was 20, uh, 2002. Yeah. Okay. So, uh, but no, I, and while the, I was director, the school district didn't have the funds to, pay for project management. So I had to double as not just being the director of the, of the operations. That was like maintenance, uh, cleaning, um, grounds, you know, uh, all the, basically the whole gamut. Yeah. And, and IT, I also was the major capital project manager. Right. And going back to the facility side, like you weren't doing the work, you were just instructing, you were managing a team under you and going through that. Yeah. I had two managers, which grew over time that we were able to add a few more. But yeah, that's basically what it was. was responsible for making sure the buildings were clean, safe, operational. But I also was tasked with project management. right at the beginning of my tenure, seismic mitigation program came into being in the province. Delta being as close to the water as it is, was very vulnerable. It had a number of schools that were vulnerable, not just for the structure, but for the substructure. And one of the things I really prided myself on when I was in Delta was we were the first school district to actually finish our program. we had 10 schools on the seismic. mitigation program list. And we were the first school district to get them all done. And that to me really, really stood out. And the Ministry of Education noticed it and were pursuing me to start a project office in even a more vulnerable region in in greater Vancouver, and that's Richmond. Yeah, before that, how did you get? Why? What do you think that you did so unique to basically blast through that? Because you became like, yes, it was one of the main cities that was requiring these major size upgrades during that process. But you accelerated, you did it in the right fashion. Why do you think that you, your team and everyone involved, why did you guys get through it so quick given the tape? Dogged determination, Matt. Dogged determination. I was on the blower with ministry officials constantly. It's not that I wanted to be the first in the province to get everything done. I just wanted to get it done. that's kind of my, yeah, I'm kind of like Larry the Cable Guy, get her done. But that's kind of my credo is once I'm posed with a problem, I want to solve it. And in Delta, we, if we, if I hadn't pushed as hard as I did, I don't think we would have gotten the projects approved that we did, but even the last project, the Gibson elementary project, which, I started, but I didn't finish, it was two years off on the ministry, timeline. But I said, look, we've saved so much money on our other projects. Let's take advantage of it now. And actually the minister of education at the time, Rob Fleming said, know what, let's push this one forward. Let's see if we can finish Delta off. So it was, like I said, it was dogged determination and then having a really like a top notch team that when, when we went out for proposals, everybody knew what we wanted. Everybody sharpened their pencils and we had like a phenomenal project teams. throughout that span. and there's without that, we never would have finished those projects as quickly as we did. We were under budget on every one of them, which was, we never had to go into the reserves, which was very unique. but definitely schooled other school districts paid notice to that and just said, you know, what's the secret to your success? And I said, having a really good team and using construction management as agent, as our method of project construction delivery. we're going to totally get into that. Yeah. Yeah. You're of all the people for that. And the one thing on the channel is like, I've talked about lots of Stipsum and all that, and even kind of toyed with the IPD, but construction management, other than a couple of like lines here and there. haven't focused the whole episode and that's really what this is and of all the people to bring into it, you are the man for this. So clearly the history that we just went through shows that extremely well and the community always getting the government and everyone always get to that. You got it done. Yeah. And, and you know, even when, like when I was still in Delta and when the, and when the province, like for three years, they were after me to make that move to Richmond because Richmond had 35 schools that needed seismic upgrades, but they were hung up on wanting the school district and its, and its facilities team want to replace the buildings instead of fix them. Yeah. And my philosophy is, has always been if a building's got good bones, save it. It may look like garbage now, but by the time we're finished, as long as the bones are good, we can polish it up and make it look new again. And we were able to do that in Delta with great success. So when I made the move to Richmond in 2018, it was a daunting task. 35 schools over a 15 year time span was our goal to complete. I can say with a hundred percent, confidence that we were able to complete 11 in the first five years. So we were right on track. There's three projects that I started before I retired that are currently underway. again, all those projects, the one thing we can hang our hats on is that we delivered them on time, we delivered them under budget. The ministry was approving them at a pretty fast rate. And then when COVID came along, everything slowed right down. We were getting three or four projects approved a year and then it turned into one or two. And I got a little bit frustrated by that because, you know, how are we going to get 35 in 15 years if we're kind of stuck now at 13 or 14? So I decided in 2023 that, you know what? It's time to become a pensioner. And I made the decision to retire and start my new business as a facilities consultant to school districts. And that's where we are right now. So that's my career in a snapshot. That is that was very impressive. That's okay. But yeah, and just before we jumped on here, like you're telling me that, you know, when you did it, you're like, it's gonna be all right, you know, make a few dollars here and there. But in the end, like you said, your legacy, everyone's been taking notice of that. And now your phone is ringing. And we thankfully we put on Do Not Disturb, otherwise we wouldn't get through the show. Yeah. Well, I've got my phone on, not disturb right now. Yeah, so that was huge. I think what's, know, and just through your passion, your excitement and everything, and your friendliness, open to teach and being open to ideas, that's how we met. And I still remember the first day because I freshly started at the days when it was Craven Houston Powers Architects. And Glenn froze, you know, we got a new job and our Elvyn Bartara, one of the partners of the firm said, Hey, we're going to put you on this new seismic upgrade. It's in Delta. We're out in Chillock. was a good drive. got there and, and walking to that room, we were in the library of the, of the massive seismic upgrade. Already started, design was already done, but now it's in kind of the CA process that's being built. And I walk in the room and Glenn's like. Just want to introduce you to this is Matt. He's kind of new and I'm like, I'm not new in the sense, but yes. And then immediately I'm just like, you feel like you're amongst friends. Cause I was like, I know you, I know you, I know you, and that's where you and I met, you know, one on one. And, and what an absolute pleasure it was doing all those years together. And like, I knew allowing the creativity side, which we're definitely going to get in and talk to about how that was even possible with, you know, construction manager. Yep. And yeah, like I said, and look, here we are. So that's really cool. Like your legacy is amazing. So hands down. Well, thanks, Matt. To me, it's not about legacy, it's about the kids. I guess the way I've always looked at my business style is it's about collaboration, it's about everybody having a say. Eventually someone has to make the decision and it ultimately boils down to the project manager, but I am very inclusive and Every project, I want to have some fun. And that's why every, you know, we can take projects totally seriously and, and, and, and, and be, we can even, you know, be antagonistic. I prefer the approach of if we have a team meeting, have a few laughs in there, you know, make sure that, but make sure you surround yourself with, with, people who are prepared to get along, who are prepared, who all have the same ultimate goal. It's not about the profit. It's about. the finished product. And I have been really blessed. I got to say throughout my career, I've been very, very fortunate to be amongst some of the best architects, engineers, technologists, surveyors, know, just, exactly. I, and I, and I think, you know, and, that's made That's what's made this such a fulfilling career for me. Very cool. So of course being, you know, what the RFI, the podcast and everything. Construction management. What is a simple way to put it out there for someone that does no idea or they think they know what they're doing with CM? What is CM? What is construction management in a nutshell? Oh, that's a really good question. So my, my definition. So, so I'll just start by saying I I've been, I've been using construction management as my primary means. I'm going to qualify this as construction management as agent. I don't really believe in construction management at risk because then you take a very collegial relationship during the design phase, and then it could turn into a confrontational relationship. during construction, because that what you're doing, you're telling the construction manager, you've been part of the team. You've been part of the collaboration. You've been feeding information in about buildability. And then when it comes time for the rubber to hit the road, well, now you're just a general contractor and you have a stiff sum. So I've never used it and I'm not a fan of it because what I see construction management as an agent. And like I said, I've been using it since 1996. And I still remember the project I was working on replacing the ice rink slab at Cloverdale Arena. we had Stanley Associates, it's now StanTech, they were the engineers and we had Dominion Construction as the general contractor. And we found that we had so much permafrost under that slab. I still remember Cameron Kemp, he was with Domina and he came to me and said, you know, we should think about converting this project into a construction management project from a step sum. Why when did you guys analyze that was that kind of early on like yeah? was, it was, we were, we already awarded the contract. They were the successful, better. And what we did, we, closed the arena down and we drilled core hole in, in the slab to see how deep the permafrost was. Okay. And we were expecting, you know, maybe a meter tops and it was three and a half meters. Holy smokes. And right away they said, this could be a great job to do with construction management. I said, why? Well, because with a stiff sum, the contractor takes on all the risk, but they also take the reward. So in other words, if they give a fixed price and they do it for, and they can actually provide the services for less, they keep the difference in addition to their overhead and profit. If you go construction management, you share the risk. but you share the reward. because you're hiring the construction manager on a fixed fee contract to be your agent in the field to do your superintendent role, your contract administration from a construction standpoint, not from a design standpoint. But the nice thing is, is that if you underestimate, you get to keep the difference. as an owner and I did a lot and I knew about this because I took it at UBC. I bought into it right away. I remember my boss wasn't too thrilled about it, he trusted me and we pulled that project off remarkably under budget because we got to be very flexible with how we dealt with change orders and whatnot. So to me, my definition of construction management is agent. It's like, having your own in-house construction department, your own superintendent, and they're not in it for themselves to make a huge profit. They're in it to make the project a success. And the construction manager gets their fee for construction management. My contracts, they, also include the superintendent because that could get really out of control if you don't button it up early, but we pay for that upfront. know what that's going to cost. All we don't know is what the trade contractors are going to cost. But to me, the construction manager is the maestro in the field, the superintendent. He's the guy who, or it be a she, they're the ones that are coordinating everything. They know they're going to get paid. They know they're going to, their profit is covered. burned or anything like that. Like going back to the slab was a good idea. Cause like if you, if that was stiff some and like, you know, you were thinking, it's only a meter and all three feet, you know, there it was. Well, as soon as you start digging into it, extras, extras, extra extras. And it's just, at that point you would issue a change directive. You don't know what that bill is until it would be finally done. So the CM approach. allowed you kind of have this as a complete open CD, but you're not against each other. You're working together as a team. And that's the difference. And I've been burned a number of times on Stipsum contracts where we've, I mean, I remember one project in Surrey where we, we awarded the contract and at the kickoff meeting, our first site meeting, the first thing the contractor did was serve me with a change order for $25,000 because he didn't realize that we couldn't get three phase power to the job site for his trailer. just for the trailer, not for the project. Just for the trailer. Yeah, yeah. So he served me with an extra and I know, what's this about? He said, well, know, it wasn't in, know, even though we made it clear in the tender that they're supposed to find, figure out their site, you know, their temporary power and whatnot. They were supposed to figure it out, but he served me with a change order with an extra and that project just spiraled. Yeah. And I didn't have a choice on that one. That one had to be Stipsum because that's what the city manager wanted. And that was the only job I did Stipsum since, it was about a year later. It was like 97, I guess. But after that, I said, never again. That's it. I'm done with this. I'm done with the confrontation. So like I said, what a CM does, They take on the, they basically do the same coordination as what a general contractor does. And, they're, the function is very similar, except there's a pre-arranged fee. they're, they know what they're going to make. the CM is, is part of the team and I make them part of the team early on. like when we have a project approved, I put the RFP out for both the prime consultant and the CM at the same time. is as project manager, I want all three players at the table from cradle to grave of the project. So everybody buys it. So it's a form of, it's kind of a loose form of IPD. But it's it, what it does, it just means that everyone's pulling on the same rope right from the start. the construction manager is reviewing for buildability. They're advising on schedule. You know, you may have an architect who says that, you know, we should go with this type of a soft at system and you'll have the CM going, that's going to take six months to get, and it's going to cost a fortune. Whereas if you go this way, so we've got, it's a very organic process during the design phase, but the CM has a say as opposed to in a step some where the contractor gets what they get. then, you know, and then they are, they're going to exploit it. And the reason, one of the other reasons why I'm as knowledgeable as to how stiff some contractors think is because when I worked in, when I was in contracting, when I did that job with CP rail, one of my jobs as assistant engineer was to find extras. then at the end of the job, you know, was a 17, back then 17 million, now it'd be like a hundred and 17 million, but it was 17 million. And I was able to get$5 million in extras at the end of the job of which if I would have been working with my conscience more was maybe a million, but we made 4 million on extras. I looked at that and I just couldn't see myself carrying on like that ethically. just didn't feel right. knowing that, knowing that that's the way a general contractor was when I was working there, I obviously had this little chip on my shoulder when it came to, you know, GC's moving forward. And after getting burned a couple of times on projects and search as the owner's rep. Yeah. So then I became a lot smarter about it, a lot more astute. And that's why CM as agent has become such an important tool in my toolbox. has been working in course and again, like from your history and everything's been working really well. like, I think we've kind of touched on a lot of the benefits of it, but is there any cons? know, negatives from a CM side? Well, the way I describe it to people is you've got to have the stomach to assume some of the financial and scheduled risk when you go to see them as agent. Because if you don't have the stomach for it or you don't have the hands-on know-how, if you don't get the right construction manager in place, or if you're not on top of budget, and change orders, they're, they're unchecked. Things could spiral very, very quickly. They don't, you don't have that, that, that financial security that you have in a stiff sum by saying, the stiff sum that that's the maximum you're kind of going into this. You, you've got a budget in mind because the budget's been established before you tender out to all the different trade contractors. But There's nothing contractually that says you have to stay within that. there is a risk if you're, and I just remember again, when I, know, hark back to that job in, in Cloverdale arena. I remember at the time that one of the reasons why Dominion was so keen on switching that way is because I was so hands on that the, I was on top of everything and I was out in the job site all the time and I was constantly. second guessing the engineers of the project and this and they said, this might be best for someone like you because you are, I'm not saying I'm a control freak, I really like to know where every part of the job is at because I've been there. I worked as a laborer. I dug those holes. I pulled those nails. I built those forms. But if you're not that knowledgeable in that area, it could, and if you don't have the right CM, it could go really bad. you know, what I, what I say is that, the other, well, the other thing, the other con is, time means money. And, and what I mean by that is that if you don't, if you're as a project manager, not knowledgeable enough that when the CM, the superintendent throws something at you and throw something out the, at the contract administrator that needs an immediate decision. If you can't make decisions quickly, that will lead to schedule delays and costs and your remedies are not really that strong in the contract. in order to get the most out of using CM or IPD for that matter, you've got to be able to process information very quickly, understand the risk, understand the reward and, and then make the decision and trust your construction manager and trust your CA. Because to me, the CA is protecting the design integrity. The construction manager is, is protecting the construction integrity, construction process integrity. And as long as everybody's on the same page, it's great. If you've got people that are not on the same page, it can go horribly bad. And I was going to, I was kind of bringing up a good point and like, do you get a better product in it? Like we know Stipsum, we basically, do the drawings with the beautiful school. And now we've got competitive bids coming out at every angle about it, trying to make that work. And you know, if you've done your QS and you've done your quantum server, you know, at the end of the day, it should, should be built on budget. You get these competitive bids, you get some tight bids, you know, the drawings and specs were great. Awesome. And then boom, that's what you get. There's no surprises. We'll see. Can we still get that at the end of the day? Can we get a nice product? I believe so because I think, Matt, one of the things that's, that when I used to do steps on contracts, we used to use a bid depository system. So we used to have on larger projects, we would have like the trade contractors submit their bids to the BC Construction Association plan room and they would take the bid depository. And then we, and then all the contractors, all the generals would be able to pull their price together from those groups. nice thing about CM, I think you get a better product because first off you can pre-qualify the, and it is something we always do on my CM projects. I build that into the construction managers agreement that they need to pre-qualify their trades. Obviously the trades that are most familiar with, with construction management as agent, they, they tend to bid the jobs a lot more and they bid a lot tighter. And we end up seeing a lot of repeat trades. And to me, if you don't have a good team of trade contractors, all it takes is one that can just ruin a whole project. to me, if you're pre-qualifying, you're instead of taking the bids and then you got to award to the low bidder. If you pre-qualify, least you are sorry, you have to work to the low bidder and then you check your references. This way you're doing it in reverse. So you know you're going to get a quality company who's going to give you a price, who's going give you the price. then you've got to, and then because the construction manager hopefully has worked with those trades before, I think you get much more harmony on the project, a lot more creativity. And the result is that you can actually, where you can find efficiencies in construction, that can be converted into other improvements elsewhere. if you have a way, you every project we do, we have a wish list. I was going to wishlist, like, do you get a better product in? And then if you, know, because we're kind of designing as we go into some extent and then yeah, can we have wishlist items? Can we have nice things on the jobs? Yeah. And you know, Matt, that's something that every, every, that's one of the things I pride myself on is that every project we've done with, with, uh, construction management as an agent, we've been able to, but what I like to do is that we put our plans together. We put our budgets together. We get the budget approved from the, from, uh, senior government. And then from there, what I've always done is challenge the team, not just the CM, but, the team, the construct, the, the, you know, the, the, the CA. the CM, all the trade contractors and sub consultants, and I challenge them to say, okay, like if we're doing a seismic upgrade, I want us to find the most operationally, financially efficient way of doing the work that you don't see. the work that's buried in the walls or the ceilings or the floors, find a way to make that, to do a better job of how to get to that result. So we can free up cash so we can do things that you normally couldn't afford things like, you know, paint job, new floors, you know, we're talking about Delta secondary, the project. I mean, one of the things I remember when I, when I came to the, to the school district and I looked and there was one intersection of the school, were like two, crossing hallways and I counted five different types of flooring ranging from, ranging from, 1960s linoleum up to the cheapest. vinyl tile you've ever seen. And so one of the things I wanted to make sure on a job like that, and that, you know, and that was a complex project, is that we find a way that the work we have to do behind the finishes is done so efficient that we can free up capital so we can put new floors in. I wanted every hallway to look exactly the same. I don't care what vintage, and there were 11 different additions done to that school. that we had to find a way to tie it together to make it look somewhat the same. so, yeah, so, you know, things like, you know, paint jobs, flooring, addition of security shutters, if you can do stuff like that, anything. And I guess the reason why I'm so passionate about that part is because as a facility manager over the years, I have to worry about the maintenance as well. So when I turned the building over to the maintenance department, I wanted to be more maintenance free than it was when we took it over. So they get a new roof. If we can afford to give them a new roof or if the design, if we, if we have a decision that whether we're going to do the roof diaphragm from the inside or the outside, I'll always take the outside so we can get a new roof out of the deal. And that's the game that you're playing through this process and that's where the benefits are that you're pulling out money in certain areas. as you stay within the project budget. Right. Because obviously if you, you know, I don't want, I don't want to gouge the taxpayer because I'm a taxpayer. obviously everything I want to do is has to be within budgets. So yeah. So we find, I find again with CM because your everything is, it's not as cut and dry as a step sum when it comes to change orders and that, because again, if you can find operational efficiencies in your, construction, the savings come back to the owner to redeploy. It doesn't go into the pocket of the general contractor. There's nothing wrong with general contracting or Stipsum. just, to me, I find that this system works better for me. Does it involve more work as a PM? Yeah, it does. But I think that's where you're seeing the benefits from this, right? Like you have to be, you have to be in the right mindset. If someone had no experience in construction and the way it worked or how that process worked, you could get really, you could go for a run of your money and then you don't. again, the projects that I've personally been involved with you on it, like I said, like Delta Secondary, you know, we flew in a whole crazy canopy into a courtyard and just like, we had fun. We've created our architectural unique pieces and redoing the whole community center or community theater. And like that was, again, it's all kind of, whatever we take away, we got to put back the same or better. And the nice thing about that project too, is that part way through construction, I was able to get building envelope funding from the province as well for the theater because it had failed. And we were able to pivot very quickly by saying, instead of fixing, doing the seismic upgrading within the, within the, inside of the building, we were able to do it on the outside of the building, which saved money, but it also gave the building a brand new exterior. we were able to pivot. because with, again, when you're working with, with, with, with the construction management as agent, they can pivot. Yeah. Okay. Is there going to be, is the project going to take longer? Yes. Do you negotiate and add onto the fee? Well, of course I don't want, I don't want a construction manager to lose money on these jobs. at the same time, you know, we, because we got that flexibility and, and, and the fact that we were able to, like I said, pivot with our design and we, went on the outside of the building and gave the whole building a brand new exterior, one that we were up for an award for. And it's on my website, it's on the cover of my website, it's on the homepage of my website. Yeah, that's the sort of thing, that's why I got into construction in the first place. make, basically to make a building better than it was when we took it over, or whether it's a building, if it's a parking lot, if it's a sewer system, all I want to do is extend the life of the buildings. Right now we got build most of the schools in BC they're well over 50 years old. It was probably built on a 75, 100 year life span. Exactly. So if I can get another, if I can extend that life by another 30, 40 years, my job is done. And one of the things I've always, and going back to this wish list, one of the things that's really important to me is that it's one thing to do a seismic upgrade and, do any sort of a renovation, but you don't really touch the classroom. Whereas I look at it from the other standpoint and say, I want classrooms to be, I want to reduce the number of distractions in a classroom. That's a very key point. There's a benefit by itself. Yeah. And if that means, and I one of the things that I did in Richmond before I left, one of things that was really important is I was able to convince our board to finance the retrofit of mechanical ventilation into a number of schools that were built without, they only had boiler heat. And during COVID, we had to put in air purifiers in the dead of winter, they had to open up the windows to let air in. And basically the air that was coming from the radios was going straight out the window. Yeah. Yeah. So what I did is I was able, and I knew that, you know, the province was strapped when it came to funding that. So I had our board finance it. And why did I do it? I wasn't doing it to pad my resume or, you know, to build a legacy. I did it because to me, it's a distraction when it's the dead of winter and you got windows open for natural ventilation and you're freezing the kids out and you're basically pouring money out the window with your heating. So if we can put a unit ventilator in that runs quietly, so you over size it so it runs at a slower speed so it's not as noisy as a classic unit and you get your ventilation. Just like I always say, know, if you've got, if before you do an inside job, And going back to my days at UBC, I remember we were going to redo the library, give the main library, the grand hall a new facelift. the roof was leaking. The original slate roof was leaking. And one of the things I argued for is to say, before we put a penny into this, look at this, before you paint that beam, let's fix the roof first. And we were able to get the donor to kick in some more money so we could actually fix the roof properly before doing the work inside. Because to me, it's a distraction if you've got kids that are trying to pay attention and there's raindrops hitting them on the head. So that's why I say it's all about reducing distractions. And if we can do that, if we can take a capital project and leverage our expertise in this and have the team pull together and get these little things done. The ultimate winner is the education system, which is really what it's all about. And I think it takes a really unique, like we've talked about the CM, the GC that's acting as that, and we've talked about your perspective. And as far as the architect goes, you definitely need an architect that understands this game. They have to understand this. And I guess kind of like the big thing is the process with this, you know, if we decide, Hey, this makes sense because we've got unknowns and everything. Yep. When would you bring the CM? You kind of touched on it earlier, but you know, we've got the capital planning. It's been approved by the ministry. At this point, have you hired your CM or have you hired your architect or a bit of both? Okay, that's a really good question, Matt. So, I mean, what I typically do is when a project is approved, like I said, I put out the simultaneous RFPs. First off, make sure, what's really important when you're working with public schools is that you have to have a business case that the Ministry of Education buys into. And part of that business case that you make has to describe what your construction procurement process is going to be. And some school districts choose to go, like I said, they'll go step some, some of them will go design build. know, and what, and what my challenge has always been is to how do I justify construction management as agent on a, on a project. So I have to make sure that I've got the ministry of education on board so that when we have a project agreement, which is the funding mechanism for a project. It has to say in there that this is how we're going to procure the project. if we have that, and I've never had the ministry of education say no. And, because we've made a really strong case. mean, I've, I've written a bit of a paper on how do you know when CM is right for you? Right. You know, so I've done that, but, but no. what I do is I'll put out simultaneous RFPs, for the prime consultant and the construction manager's agent to ensure that the project team is in place right. From the get go right at the start and ends. Stamatic design, we're drawing, we're meeting. And so, and then during the design phase, I make sure that the construction manager has, it takes part in every team meeting that we have. you know, the, the, the architect or the, or the, or the CA, runs the pro, runs the, meetings during design. They're, they're the prime on, during the design phase. I'm there as the project manager, but I also make sure the construction manager is there, the project manager for the construction. management firm, because I want them to offer guidance on buildability. They're the ones that are going to develop the construction schedule. They're the ones that I expect to do the cost estimates, the intermediate ones, the QS has done his job by High level. Class D estimate. the QS did his job by getting us the estimate that got the project approved. Now I want the CM to be, to do the class C, B and A estimates, even though the ministry of education requires a QS to confirm the post tender numbers. during the course of construction, I want to make sure that we're on budget, that we're not going to be surprised in the end. If there are, if it looks like we are going over that it's caught early enough that we can massage the design and have the CM advise, you know, what we need to do to, um, you know, to bring it under budget again. But at the same time, they're looking ahead instead of, you know, having a building permit and then you award a contract and then they have to figure out how are they going to mobilize? How are they, what are they need for temporary facilities? That's done well in advance. That's right. And the other thing that's really important is that I want the construction manager to start liaising with the own forces from the school district, like the technology team, security, the custodians to make sure that they're part of the process. And then the final thing that's really, I find that really is beneficial by getting the CM in early is that if we have to do any invasive or non-invasive investigations, like if we have to, you know, like, what explained what we did at Cloverdale Arena where we had to drill a hole and find out how much permafrost we had. Well, if we need to find out ahead of time that maybe the hazmat report is off or, know, do we, is this wall, it says it's a five eights type X wall, but is it? Peel back and have a look and see what the But the board says for a fire rating. That's right, because that can totally change the design process. it does take that synergy between the groups and it is neat. Like from the architectural point, yeah, we ran the meetings originally, like we did the meeting minutes, meeting notes, we did all that. Like I said, the... The CM was basically in the room offering their two cents going, you're nuts because that's it. like you said, the scheduling is a big one, right? Especially when we're talking schools, because now like, big disruptive, you know, areas like, Hey, we've got summer coming up. Let's get in there and blast through it. So the architect's going to have to push a little harder to get those drawings. Identify. Exactly. one of the things I forgot to mention is phasing because quite often, again, if you're doing a job, step some, the architect is the one who will put together a phasing plan, but the contractor, when they get the job, they may go, well, that's not going to work for this reason the other. This way, the phasing, it's collaborative as to how we're going to phase this project. because you got the CM involved, you got the PM involved, you got the prime consultant, you've got the principal, you may have other school district senior managers involved, but what gets shown on the drawings is the net result of all the collaboration. So we have a phasing plan that really works. yeah, so that, during the design phase, these are huge. But once we get into construction, That's a segue. Yeah. So now we're in construction. We've gone in, we're green light, BP's up and approved, building permit. but that's where things then things flip a little bit. the team meetings are now chaired by the construction manager and the, but the CA has a super important role in this because even though they don't have this, they're not the payment certifier that you would have on a, it is is they, they advise, they consult, they review, they still have to process submittals, but, the CM, the CM gets it and they'll, they'll be the ones that will receive the RFIs. They'll, they'll compile and issue the, the RFI that goes to the CA and, but the CA has a little bit, I find that the role is, it's a little bit different. It becomes, you, the CA becomes, can become a little more creative because we're not as not everything's not as cut and dry when it comes to, you know, reviewing, and, and, and approving or denying or declining, change order amounts and that it's more of a consultive, more, you're doing more consulting back to the, tri, I call them the triad. It's the CM, the CA and the PM. We collectively have to have to decide. So, the, The CM takes on the role of payment certifier because all the trade contractors, and that's assigned by the owner because all the trade contractors aren't under contract to the construction manager, they're under contract to the owner. Right, okay, from the big contractual point of view. But what we've done, because when we started, when I started doing this, what used to drive our finance departments crazy is that we would have like 20 contracts, that meant 20 invoices coming in all the time. late, I think was around 2016, 2017, I worked with our CMs to say, can you guys just give us one bill, one invoice? as a CM. So all the contracts are with the school district or with the owner, but we, you're our agent, therefore you're the one who receives the invoices on our behalf. You collect them. You pay the trade contractors once you get paid by us. that way that simplifies. And I'll tell you, our finance departments, they were kissing the ground I walked on at that point. like, no, you wouldn't have that, like we did again, a Stipsum job where we had a demo contractor, didn't like, it felt like this was a legit extra, it really wasn't, but they put a lien on the job. that application, that won't really happen in this case. It would never happen. Otherwise, of course, they would never work with the CM again, because they've got that synergy. They know what to expect. And that's one thing I can say with a hundred percent confidence in all the years that I've been a project manager. I've never had a lien put on a project. However, when I, when I came to Richmond, there was a lien on an existing project that we needed to clear. And that was a step sum. So again, I'm not, I'm not poo pooing step sum. I think for some people it's, it's a godsend that because that way they, you don't, as a project manager have to be as hands on. You've got your prime consultant overseeing the project on your behalf and you've got the builder. Whereas the other way, you're in charge as the project manager. Again, but like we said earlier, having experience that makes a a big role to it. So yeah. So in terms of the CA process, we know the RFIs are still going to come. We absolutely can't. And they probably are going to be a little bit more reduced because we've already talked about this in design, right? Not about what are you doing? What's the intention here? They always were part of it. There may be a formality, but I wouldn't say they would be reduced by half, but I would probably say a third of it probably at least. I would say so. Yeah. I mean, what ends up happening is, you, I find that the number of RFIs is way lower. number of change orders is way lower. And the RFIs and the CEOs, or the CCN CEOs, it's tied more to, unknown situations that you've encountered in field. It's not so much a design deficiency from, because it was, yeah, cause it was caught, it was caught by the by the construction manager during design. Yeah. So it's. The CM is going to be reviewing those drawings as you're going through it. when you're reviewing those as an owner, they'll take a set, they'll put their comments, hey, we're not seeing details on this and they're already pricing it. And with school districts, think the biggest issue that I've seen, I've, I've worked with a number of school districts, you know, both as an employee, then, you know, as a consultant as well, the record drawings that they've got from buildings that were built in the forties, fifties, sixties, seventies is awful. They, they, and I think the reason is they used to give away the drawings to, to architects to use for a new project and never got them back. So we're kind of going into a lot of these, these school, uh, renovation or seismic upgrade projects with poor record drawings. So you have to expect that when you dig that hole and you find out that the foundation is half as deep as what you thought. Yeah, that's going to be an RFI and that's going to likely turn into a change order. And the structural engineer is going to want to kill somebody. Exactly. And when it comes to that change, so again, yeah, we know the basics and everything, SIs and stuff like that. It's like, so we're going to issue site instructions for them to the change there. And rather than we're not really technically issuing proposed changes or CCNs because again, that's the CM process. then they'll take it pricing is really more going to go to you. It's not going to go to the architect other than maybe like, can you just kind of put your two cents to it? Does it match? typically the way I've done it is that, like you said, in most cases, you've got the request for information coming from the construction managers, from the site, it's from the trade contractor, goes through the construction manager's office, they put out the RFI. The response to that is normally a site instruction. It's a response to the RFI followed by a site instruction and the site instruction could involve costing may not involve costing involves costing. Then this then it's up to the construction manager to put together the contemplated change notice, get the pricing from the trade contractors affected, send it back to the CA and it goes to the CA first. It doesn't go to the project manager first. Well, at least not on my projects. And the architect looks at the CA looks at they come back and say, Yeah, that's reasonable. And then it's up to the, then it's up to the, the construction manager to come to me as the owner and say, okay, we recommend that this be signed. I sign it. move on. so, so because even though the, the, the architect or the prime consultant, isn't the payments, the classic payment certifier, want them to have some skin in the game anyway, when it comes to that. And if that means that they, they review change doors. mean, it's just, you know, they got to, they got to review, they got to process submittals, shop drawings. You know, I don't want them totally off the hook. Exactly. if my pricing is fair and reasonable, even at that point, I guess that's where the architects are going to be like, come on, we just did this on another job and we're seeing this is getting a little regressive. And then I guess that's where it opens up the conversation. But again, it should be a much more relaxed conversation because you've got this relationship, you were working together. Absolutely. No, no. that's the way, and like I said, that's the way I like it. it's, and it's just, you know, when we talking about construction phase, I just wanted to share something with you that my wife told me the other day is that she's, she worries because I've taken on too much work since I'm supposed to be technically retired. But she said that what makes her so happy is that I'm in a project, a construction meeting, like right now Dixon element, or Dixon elementary in Richmond seismic upgrade. I'm looking after it. we're having these meetings and she can hear me talking, she can hear the others talking. And then all of sudden she hears laughter. Like I'll burst out laughing or they'll hear laughter the other side. She said, that is the greatest sound in the world. And that is something that again, if you don't have that collegial relationship during design and you keep the team flowing, you know, that you can pull fun at each other or you can have a good chuckle about something, you know, and to me that That's what's really important. You take the job seriously, but you also know when not to take the job totally seriously and or not take each other seriously. just, and that's, that's been kind of the trademark of my projects. And you know that because you remember our project meetings that, know, sometimes got a little gut. I wouldn't say crazy, but just we would have a good laugh with each other. Yeah, 100%. I agree with that. If someone was looking at doing CM, any like, I'm throwing this out, it wasn't on the script. you're all right out there, but any kind of tips? Like if you're about to venture down this path, if you had to give kind of like a few sentences of advice, how would you, what would you say? Well. think one of the ways to answer that is to say, how do you know if construction management as an agent is right for you, for your project? what I do is I got a bit of a checklist that I've put together. One is that you'll know it's appropriate when you've got, the owner wants a strong desire to be involved with pre-qualifying sub-trades. controlling the local labor content. If you've got a tight schedule, which involves some sequential tendering of bid packages to fast track the job, then you know that this is a good approach to take. That, you know, again, that you trust the process, you trust the team that you want, that you did your, as an owner, your prepared to accept advice from other than your prime consultant and have it from the builder. If you have a complex project that is it, you know that it's going to be very difficult to adequately price the job because of unknown concealed conditions or complexities. And seismic upgrading is like the perfect example of the type of project that that CMS agent works on because You just have no idea what you're going to find when you open up the walls or floors or ceilings. But the key to me is if you're prepared to be more hands on that, that you're prepared to take it on the chin when things go sideways and they, I wouldn't say things always go sideways, but you know, every project has its challenges. But if you're prepared to, you know, to take it on the chin, if you have to, as long as you're prepared to problem solve and you don't have to be a professional engineer to problem solve. You just have to be a reasonable person who understands the business. Then I'd say it's, you know, then I say it is the right approach for you. I, you know, I think that it's worked for me for a number of years. I've been very fortunate that, you know, in the project offices that I started at UBC, they were using CM as agent. And they were doing a lot of it in house using the same theories, the same practices that we were using with, with private firms. And then when I started the project office at in Richmond and the idea was that I was the director. wasn't supposed to be hands on, but you know, me, of course, you know, I'm going to take on some projects myself and do it. But I, but I was able to teach. the project managers I hired, how to do this and where they've moved on to now, in their careers, whether they've moved on to other school districts whatnot, now they've got that tool in the toolbox that when they're talking to their bosses, they actually know that this is a really good approach for that type of a job. So yeah, I would say it's... It's worked for me for a number of years. It's, you know, it's got me where I am today. And, but I think that what it's done is it's made, it's built relationships, not just in the construction industry, not just with construction managers or trade contractors, but it's really solidified relationships with consultants, with engineering and architectural consultants, because once they've had a chance, to experience how we do these projects and the level of collaboration. I find that you rarely see firms that have done this sort of work with me or with my team before. You'll never see them pass on an RFP in the future. They want to work on these jobs. They will sharpen the pencil if they have to to get that experience. I can't think of very many consultants I've had who've just said, it, this is nuts, I don't want to do this. They've all come back and said, yeah, we want, we want more. So that's a, that to me is a good sign. Exactly. And I know we're kind of wrapping up the hour here, but like you mentioned seismic. I think we've got to do this again for part two. I'll have you out to Harrison hot springs. We'll do that. We'll talk all about seismic upgrades because that's another world that, you know, and there's only so many people get experience because it's not required throughout all of North America. Right. It's very specific in that. So we'll have to do it again. Thank you so much for being on here. Where can people find you? You mentioned website. Where were you even want people? So yeah, no, I'm, time for a shameless plug. No, no, I'm just kidding. no, my, I, my company is a FJ Geier Consulting and my website is, FJ Geier Consulting dot CA. we're on the web. I'm on LinkedIn and that. I'm not, I don't, I'm not going out to, you know, to, to promote. don't, I don't meet with school districts to promote my services. I, to me, I want people to come in to come to me. And I've got to, I mean, the reason I got a website is because I was a webmaster. I've been a webmaster for a long time as well. So I figured, well, I better put myself on the web. So yeah, no, I was just gonna say if anyone wants to, even if they want to chat, you know, or they need some advice on something, you know, just look me up and my, my door is always open unless it's shut is what I always say to people. yeah, no, thanks for having me on that. I think it's been a blast. I said, we definitely got to do part two and yeah, I, anyone listening to this, think hands down, they totally know what construction management is going forward. There's no excuse of not knowing, I understand the pros, the cons, a lot of pros in this case. And I think that's it. So, but yeah, that's wraps up this episode. And of course, you know, Again, you guys have a new perspective about what CMs are in that respect. And I think too with the channel, again, if you guys are enjoying listening to this, put a review in there, please. It really helps out the podcast immensely. And of course, last but not least, architects keep designing and contractors keep making those blueprints reality. We'll see you on the next one.