Unlocking the Power of Specifications

In this episode of What The RFI, host Matt Brennan engages with Dory Azar and Jason Hicks from RIB SpecLink at Buildex. They discuss the significance of specifications in architecture, the challenges posed by bad specs, and the innovative solutions offered by SpecLink. The conversation also touches on the slow adoption of technology in the architectural field, the role of AI in improving specification writing, and the optimal timing for creating specifications during a project. In this conversation, the speakers delve into the intricacies of specification writing and its critical role in the architecture and construction industries. They discuss the challenges of specification reviews, the importance of coordination between specifications and drawings, and the need for continuous updates during the construction phase. The conversation also highlights the future of spec writing, particularly in attracting younger professionals to this essential yet often overlooked aspect of architecture. Collaboration among architects, spec writers, and contractors is emphasized as a key to successful project execution.

Takeaways

• Specifications are crucial for clear communication in construction projects.
• Bad specifications can lead to costly mistakes during construction.
• SpecLink offers a cloud-based solution for efficient spec writing.
• The architectural industry is slow to adopt new technologies.
• AI can enhance the accuracy of shop drawing reviews.
• Involving spec writers early in the design phase adds value.
• Clear and concise specs reduce change orders and disputes.
• Automating mundane tasks in spec writing saves time.
• The integration of technology in architecture is essential for progress.
• Timing is key for effective specification creation in projects. Spec reviews can be overwhelming due to their complexity.
• Investing time in high-quality specifications upfront is crucial.
• Avoid duplicating information between drawings and specifications.
• Updating specifications during construction is essential for accuracy.
• Collaboration between architects and spec writers enhances project outcomes.
• Young professionals should be encouraged to explore spec writing as a career.
• Technical knowledge in spec writing is valuable and necessary.
• Clear communication can prevent conflicts during construction.
• Specifications serve as a safety blanket in litigation-prone environments.
• The future of architecture relies on effective specification practices.

Sound Bites

• "Specs are an extension of the drawings."
• "Specification writing is an art."
• "SpecLink helps you write your specs faster."
• "AI can flag discrepancies in shop drawings."

Chapters

• 00:00 Introduction to BuildX and Guests
• 03:00 The Importance of Specifications
• 06:07 Challenges with Bad Specifications
• 08:57 Introducing SpecLink: A Game Changer
• 11:58 Adoption of Technology in Architecture
• 15:03 The Role of AI in Specification Writing
• 17:58 Timing for Specification Creation
• 20:56 Navigating Specification Reviews
• 24:10 Best Practices in Specification Writing
• 26:56 The Importance of Coordination
• 30:34 Updating Specifications During Construction
• 32:32 The Future of Spec Writing
• 39:00 Collaboration in Architecture and Construction

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Transcript

0:00

BuildX, drawings, specs, and two guests. Let's get into it. Welcome to What The RFI, I'm Matt Brennan and this is the podcast all about CA and today we're at BuildX with Dory and Jason. Before I even get into it, I'm just gonna let you guys introduce yourself and away we go, so. Go for it, take away Dory. All right. My name is Dory Azar. I'm a licensed architect in the province of Ontario and I work at R.I.B. Specklink now as we're a few different hats. But if you called me the brand ambassador, I think that's that's the catch all. No. And I'm Jason Hicks. I work at RIV SpecLink as well. My responsibilities are to prepare the content that we put in our software platform. So I'm a technical writer by trade. I've been a consulting spec writer for 20 plus years and I'm happy to be here. And how are you finding the show right now? Good, good entertainment, lots of traction. It started kind of slow and it just it really ramped up towards lunch. So I'm a people watcher. I love that. You know, we've got a good little intersection here to see people coming and going. But I think it's it's it's now sort of starting to fill out a little bit. It's good. Good times. And have you checked out a couple of the events and like the actual talks and stuff? Have you sat through some of them? That's kind of difficult for us. We really want to be able to engage the customer. So manning the booth is the primary function for us to be here. We do have opportunities to see some of the education sessions. think we might take in some of those later in the day or tomorrow. But yeah, we're here to interact with people. No, very cool. And then if you're not manning booths and stuff like that, what are you guys doing for fun? Always. Industry leading podcasts. Of course. Do it. You mean outside of? yeah. to like that little bit of time. I don't know where we have it, but you know, that little bit of a moment. So what do you guys do? jeez, I spend a ton of time creating content on social media, which I think you know that. Just a little bit. I am a drummer. I've been playing the drums for like, since was like 13, so I absolutely love playing the drums. Hockey, golf, you know, the basics, the basics. yeah, that's just me. That's you, Jason. Yeah, I'm coming to the end of one of those milestones where my kids are starting to move out. So I'm starting to realize that there's things that I liked other than fathering. And so, you know, I like I'm interested in kind of weird stuff. think being a technical writer, a specification writer by trade, we always kind of gravitate to sort of the introverted things that people like. So, you know, science fiction, reading lots of books. You know, I'm into watches, you know, we do outdoor activity. with the kids so we ski as a family and stuff you know raise a family raise a family of four it's fun. That is a challenge. got three my own. Four of that just goes even... It's expensive? Yeah, we know that. have two, so you guys can teach me all your tips and tricks. move to the East Coast, it's a little cheaper. I'm sorry. alright. Don't live in BC. Step one, relocate your entire life. So mention of specs a few times. What's your position on specs? why, again, I've talked about specs on the show in that respect and the importance, people have heard me. Why is specs important to you? Why do you think it makes the job, you know, it is a time that, you know, specs aren't even required? Because again, different jobs have such minimal specs. Where do you see on it? What's your take on it? Thank you. Do you want it exactly? To me they're an extension of the drawings, Like they are there that that second half of a project that's so we all know the drawings are showing you, know, quantities and distances and relationships between materials where the specs are taking over is It's a communication tool really. It's graphical representation to communicate design intent. And you know the complementary documents between the drawings and the specifications are there to you know convey design intent. So the better the specs, the clearer the design intent is to the person bidding the job. And you know if your documents are clear and concise, easy to understand, you're gonna have less problems problems during the construction phase. So for me, specification writing is an art in the sense that you're trying, you're really trying to hone the craft to the point where anybody can pick them up, understand what you're trying to get at, put a price to it because we're soliciting bids through these contract documents and a fair price so that nobody's losing money at the end of the day. The owner's not paying through the nose for change orders because your documents weren't clear or you missed thing. and your contractor's not doing extra work because he forgot to bid this piece of the work or the scope of work wasn't as he thought it would be because it was, the documents weren't clear enough. So specification and the drawings to me are really tools to provide, give the owner what they want, what their vision was when they sat down with the architect or the engineer, translate my vision in writing so that somebody can see it. It levels the playing field of a project too, right? So like you said, if you're putting this out for bid, mean, the tighter the drawings, the tighter the specs, the owner is going to benefit from a well put together set of documents. I mean, you're all about CA, but hopefully entering that phase is not an absolute disaster as it never is. Could be and that was kind of my question is like we have we can have bad drawings I've seen bad drawings. You've probably seen bad drawings. Yeah bad specs Can we work with bad specs? Do you find is it you know? Can you make do or have you worked with a pair of bad specs before you see? I've never built bad spam. I can't speak to that. Good answer. Yeah, no, I listen You sign a contract with bad specs their contract admin phase is not going to go smoothly Yeah, right. I think most people would agree if bad set of bidding documents turns into a cumbersome contract and then everybody's You know, you've RF eyes go up change orders go up The clients not happy, you know, there's a lot of finger pointing around the table, you know love getting around the table with people that are losing money and pointing at me because I missed something. 100%. Yeah, well that's, yeah, I lost my train of thought because there's something I was gonna say to add to that. Bad specs, bad drawings. You gotta have both, they gotta be good. Because you're right, you don't, it basically is a foundation, if it doesn't go in together well. And there was one school project I worked on, I felt the drawings were pretty rock solid, it was an addition, it was everything. But this time we tried, rather than using our own personal specs that we really bulletproof over the years and quit updating and all that, we used a new spec writer. And we thought, okay, let's try this out. And that was the part I was so scared of the job, if the job's gonna have extras. it was going to be because of his work and it was weird because like it was calling up for certain type of pea gravel as backfill and the contractor was like do you really want me grabbing pea gravel for this area? Like it was just specks and you know in the end I left to join part three and that so I didn't get to see all the change orders that came from it but it was that was the one thing that was scaring me so yeah. I remember what I was going to say now is that a bad spec or a bad drawing generally will always come up at some point, right? Like you can only shirk those bad decisions or those mistakes or those errors and omissions for so long because somebody's going to build that, right? Like every line, every number, every sentence is being scrutinized. Well, it should be read, should be scrutinized and questioned. And so if you're missing stuff or stuff's wrong, it will get flagged at some point in the process and it'd be way more expensive to fix it then than it would be to just just have it prepared properly up front. Exactly. And since we're talking about specs, you know, for the ones that are watching this episode, we got Speckling. You guys are the experts. You're the one that's unique. Sure. Plug it. What is it? So for anybody who doesn't know what spec link is, spec link is a spec writing platform that helps you write your specs sort of faster and more accurately. And what that means is it's two things. It is the software itself, but it's also, and Jason being our content writer, you get. See you. almost 800 sections of specs that come pre-written with the software. But the software is based on linking. So for example, if we open up a section and I say, I need a hollow metal door and I click on that I want a hollow metal door, it's also going to activate the fact that you need a hollow metal frame, probably some hardware, probably all the associated things to go with it. So it's really like specs by inclusion. So you have all of this content that's available and you get to say, I want that, I want that, I don't want that, I want that. That's kind of the nuts and bolts of it because you can connect things. So every time I click on this, you also add these things. Now in addition to that, there's a lot of great things like our reference standards are always kept up to date because it's a cloud-based platform. So when you start your next project, of, so you're not using this, that like reference standard from like 1942. Different testing It doesn't even exist anymore or anything like that. All of those are kept up to date on the backend by us. And there's a lot of big global things that happen. So for example, if you needed to do any kind of submittal reports or anything like that, those are one button clicks because you've tagged certain things along the way. If you need, I know a lot of engineers work with architects who want their things done a very specific way, right? So we have like a template that you can just globally change the whole entire spec in one click. Headers and footers are updated like in one spot with one click. So it's really like taking the mundane stuff out of it, optimizes it and lets you just focus on crafting a proper spec. Do you find that there's still, I find the architectural industry, and I did talk about this yesterday with another group and stuff, is I find that they're very slow to adopt in architects. Like look at the AutoCAD to Revit world. Like that took years. And it's still happening. And we're still on AutoCAD. I'm just kind of shaking my head. like, you're have the kid down the road who's gonna be doing the job. That's the uphill battle for us with this software platform. is we get architects, engineers that have been writing specifications in Microsoft Word for years, and they're busy. They invest a lot of time in the drawings and working on the drawings and doing that graphic communication on the plans. Sometimes the specs come late during design development and during working drawing production, and they will defer to the last project that they did. So that whole process of pulling out a spec from a similar job that you've done in the past that worked reasonably well, it's a habit that is hard to break. to go to a database-driven and a cloud-based software platform is a little bit intimidating occasionally. adopting a new way to do your internal process, your internal production, can be intimidating. So I think that's one of the biggest uphill battles that we have is convincing somebody that's writing spec that there's a better alternative than just Microsoft Word. Those 800 sections that you have in a folder on your hard drive, that you, okay, which ones do I need, drag them over to the project folder. Yeah, we're just providing, I think, a better tool. You know, a more technologically savvy design. Exactly. In architects make big leap decisions all the time. Right engineering. we got it to cut it back Right, like we're not afraid of making big tough decisions, right? Even if you at some point went from manual drafting to CAD drafting, from CAD drafting to BIM, from using a product you've never used before, hiring an employee that you've never hired. We're used to taking risks and investing in large ideas. But there is still that, think adopting new things just takes a leap, right? And it does and like changes, like I said, the revolution, meeting with architects every day, there's better things, but it's just that, it's it's a, know, the whole unlearned pivot and learn again kind of stuff. And it's, if you can get through that and that's it. But in a day, like if you're not going to do it, someone else is going to. And at that point, you know, they're going to overtake where you are. And two, at the end of the day, we all share the same thing as time. So do you want to be doing mundane tasks, all the cover pages? Or would you like to change one thing and boom, it's done? Or like you said, new specs come out for this door hardware and then they've changed it, they discounted it. Yeah. Well, that's the big thing about these types of software editing platforms is the first thing that you did when you're building something like this is what are the repetitive mundane tasks that we can automate to take that out of the cycle? Right? So header layouts, know, using global terms repeatedly in the specification, whether it's for the contractor, whatever it might be, departmental representative versus owner versus architect versus engineer. So take the mundane. automate it, make it very efficient and then you're that'll save you so much time. Even like the pull down, the choice fields that we have. if you have a certain type of door finish, right, whether it's a flush face or what it, know, various finishes, we have those all as, as pull down. So you're not losing any information. You just pick it from a list. And if that door changes later, you just come back in and it's still on the list. You just pick a different one. So it's, it's really, and what I, what's cool about that too, is it keeps inspecting, keeps everything in one file, one source of truth. Like all the things are there. You can like start, within Speckling. we a commenting tool where you can go back and forth a million times about this product or that product and import cut sheets. it's really, yeah, I think once people see it, like we've done a lot of demos where if they're reluctant, once they see it, they're like, oh, like anything else, you're little intimidated by it until you get into it yourself. I was like that with Revit when I adopted Revit. It was like, it was just a one day, like almost angry, like that's it. You don't know what I'm doing. I don't know what to draw. I've drawn a wall. was using it for like, I had some good experience. I had a boss, it was in 2005, introduced me to Revit. And I was like, okay, that was pretty early in the Revit game. But we would use it a little bit for renderings or some 3D stuff here and there, not to its full potential. And then eventually I was on my own. It was like, and then I went back to AutoCAD because it was kind of safer. And then you're like, this is ridiculous. So you just got to use the heavy hitting software, right? You got to, it's doing more per click and that's it. So a big topic, and I don't know if there was too many at this session or at this conference, but AI is talking. Are you guys using AI to help for specs? We're using AI to take the specs, the shop drawings, and review the two in real time on part three. Which is really cool. it's flagging. Well, it actually did even before that, the fun conversation of going to the contractor saying, look, I want to get a shop drawing schedule from you. And you never get it, right? I only got one my whole entire career. where this changes the game, I'm so excited. I've only met a few that are passionate about it. Basically, upload the specs into the software. It creates the full shop drawing schedule for you. And now you're versus saying, contractor, I don't need this schedule. You're to log in and just give me all these items I need. I've actually categorized them by hot leads, long leads, et cetera. And then they start uploading their cut sheets. So say if it was a window shop drawing, well, we wanted star line windows. the shop drawing with Sentra, it's gonna flag and go, it's not matching. And it does a peer review and then it goes through testing and manual, know, colors and warranty and all these things like even doing it for 22 years, it's a checklist. Right. I never issue a set of drawings without going through my checklist. Right. It's the same thing. So like, are you guys playing with that? And somehow like, So I don't know how so that's not in my domain. I'm pretty sure it's not in your what? It's we have to edit this. Yeah, software development team. I'm sure right on top of that, you know Most of the stuff that we do like the linking that we build into our master Specifications that I do as part of our production team or our content development team Yeah, that's a form of AI because when the user gets it they're clicking on one section and it's activating other things So we're building in intelligence tools to help them edit the specification down Do we use AI and in some other capacity? I would be surprised if we didn't wear soft. I'm not sure. And maybe these guys can answer it for us a little after, but no, that's... I'm not responsible for AI at SpecLink. Because I think like with lawyers, it's almost similar to specs. That's one market. And maybe it is, but I haven't seen it. But you know what mean? A lawyer using AI to find that section, that case, or whatever. Seriously, that's not wrong. It's not cheating. It's just being smart with your d***. You can build a house with a hammer, or I can build it with a nailer. I'm going to go so much quicker, until it jams and all that kind of stuff. And then you're going to laugh and it's like... ahead of you, but I'm still ahead the tortoise and the hare scenario here. So with Specs, for a young architect or someone who's doing it, when do you think Specs should start to be created in the job? So we've met with a client, we've gone into the schematics, you know the next steps, eventually it's going to be BP, DP's before that, eventually construction documents and then tender. Do we want to bring it in literally like a few weeks before tender or when do you? Sure, but as a slack writer he'll give you different What do you think? That's more common when it comes in last minute, but listen, if you take any of the education programs in Canada, construction specifications, Canada has those education programs. I think the overwhelming theme is the specification writers should be involved as early as possible in the design phase because generally they're going to provide value to product selection and all the decision making process that starts really on project inception. Somebody already has a concept of what they want. And having the specification writer in early can help, might prevent a value engineering exercise later during design development. So get them in early, but they're also rare. And if you have one in your office, they're probably very busy. So I think most spec writers come around working drawing phase. Like we have concept, we have schematic design, we have a program, so we know what we're doing, we're about to start working drawings. I think that's a really good time for a spec writer to get involved in the project at that level. Is that probably just in a typical or what we might call a typical project? I think that's my experience. And that's just my opinion. think other people probably disagree, maybe get him in earlier during design developments. we're talking as an external spec writer, right? No, even your internal person. Well, that's the other thing. There's a lot of people hiring consultant spec writers in Canada right now because if you're consulting spec writer, it's nice to be able to pick your client. Yes. Right. So. Thank Yes. For the few, not the few, but the larger companies, engineering or architectural companies that have staff in-house that write specifications, I'm gonna guarantee nobody's sitting around waiting to be invited to a building permit review or a schematic design meeting. They're busy, they're doing something. They're multi-taskers, so yeah, just trying to figure out when's the best use of their time. internally is everybody's going to have a different formula for that. Exactly. I agree, Jason, like that's where I found like after BP was like, all right, you can come to the table now. Let's start having those conversations, just getting your mind started to think about we're still figuring all the materials out. You know what I mean? That but it can start kind of getting it going. The owner is going to come out on the Friday and go up. Can I have a chance to look at the specs? And you're like, I guess we'll just copy the last job or something. All right. And that's Look at and listen, spec review is onerous. It is somebody who's going to give you a PDF or a hard copy and it's going to have 500 plus pages in it. So what, when do I have time uninterrupted to sit down and start going through this? And traditionally people would mark that up with a red pen or something. yeah, sticky notes. That's some of the value in the type of software platform that we have is that somebody can come into the project very early and start making line by line comments. So we have a commenting feature that allows people to do that. So I think the software platform we have with some of the bells and whistles built into it, the collaboration features makes that process a little bit easier. So it would be good. I'd love to query some of the people that use it on a regular basis. You know, how do you guys review the specification? When do you start reviewing it? Have you found that your production, your spec production started earlier now that you're using a spec editing platform as opposed to just putting together some Microsoft Word sections? is spec link does allow you to be more fluid earlier on right so you can you can adjust sort of mid project by unchecking those things checking those things like it's still keeping you I can stick a data sheet in where the window spec is. You know, this is what I want. Yeah, and that's where it starts to speed up to the point where you don't need front desk renaming all the titles or taking the notes from the architect. She has no idea. She's like, I think that's spelt this way. and you know, I've looked at it like this. It's like using BIM is kind of like the adoption of, I'm sorry, using Specklink is like adopting BIM, right? Like it's doing more. So with each, in Revit, with each wall you draw, it's like generating information. It's generating quantities. It's generating volumes. Specklink is, you can look at it similar to that. It's just doing, with every little click you do, it's building out, it's robust. It's doing a lot more heavy lifting. Exactly, that's right. So with all the specs, do's versus don'ts are some things that you would recommend like from your years experience that absolutely do this and don't do that. Just don't. My experience is what I referred to earlier is I'd rather spend the time, the extra time on them upfront and make sure they're as water, waterproof as possible, watertight as possible because something will get caught along the way. Once they leave your hands, then it's out of your hands and somebody else's, any of those errors could come up if you just kind of skipped over something. So for me, it's always about as much as high quality as possible before they leave. Because like one example, and then you can jump into it, Jason, is like I found quantities were very dangerous. So like there was one job, it was a school job, the drawings were perfect, they had, you know, the 12 basketball hoops in there, pretty straightforward, but the specs called for nine. And it was the contractor did the whole specs rule, and we had to write up a CO because the specs rule. and that kind of stuff. So those were things that we started really kind of going to make it dummy proof to pull stuff back out of the specs of quantities or like finish schedules. The colors would be noted on the finish schedule but the product was in the specs and that worked out really well but I'm sure there was things that the contractor would pick up and you got something. at that, It's hard coordination, right? Drawings and specifications and finish schedules, all that information has value in those locations. The worst thing you can do in a spec is start duplicating information, putting quantities that are clearly shown on the drawing and having quantities shown in the specifications. So whenever you're duplicating the information, it's harder to maintain that specter in the bidding phase, right? So if somebody comes in and luckily shares the information, saying you know I was reviewing this I'm putting a bid together you got 12 basketball backstop shown on the drawings but it says nine quantity of nine in the specification which is it well we can write an agenda during the bidding phase to correct that coordination but when you start duplicating information from the drawings to the specification or vice versa you're really setting yourself up for some type of conflict between those documents so you know specification writers and people that do drawings you know there's there's the rule of thumb of say it once and say it in the right place yeah yeah so there's there's experience from being a spec writer or somebody that's doing producing drawings that says for you to know where that right place is so that does take experience but i think that's one good rule of thumb is say it once and say it in the right place yeah And that's a beautiful segue into is it better to put, what would be better to put on drawings that you wouldn't do in specs and price? Like we know the specs and specs, but like kind of the example, the quantities and stuff. Is there something else that comes to mind that, you know, light bulb moment of going, my goodness, never put that in specs. Definitely going to detail that. Like we're not going to call up screws or something like that on the drawings and that kind of thing. But we've seen some people do that. So, you know, I don't know. And you all see ratings. Like we put those on the sheets. We found that really helpful, right? But. I'm chuckling because I did have a screws on the drawings conversation. Look, means and methods. Each contractor works differently during erection of steel structures. There's a lot of rules that they follow. The last thing you want to do is tell them how to do their work. Because if they have a way that works for them and they're successful, they've been in business for a while, and they're not in the courtroom all the time, obviously their way is probably good enough. So don't try to them what to do in the specification. It's what I see people in part three of the spec where all the where you're the execution part of the specification they talk about do this do this do this. I like people to sort of rely on industry standard practices for that. If there's a reference standard that's applicable to whatever scope of work you're trying to execute, stick to that. Let the contractor figure out the method of assembly or what type of screws you're going to use. Sure, you want stainless steel screws because we're on a coastal climate. That's a specification item. screw size, you you got to know what the substrate is. know what the pullout, let the contractor do some of the hard lifting because that's what you're paying them for. So I don't like to specifically in the spec use that as a tool to tell the contractor how to do their job. And you know if they're bidding it quick, they don't have a lot of time to put it together, they're gonna defer back or their default way of doing business and then they come in and the architect's like well we want it done this way and I didn't bid it that way. Now we're going to have a conversation. It's going to cost somebody money. And let's try to avoid people losing money after you sign the contract. Exactly. that's, know, when it comes to CA, the ultimate goal is not to lose any more money. you probably may have been burnt during the design phase. I've had some jobs where we've seen that, right? So the ultimate was CA. And do you find that the specs are getting updated during CA? Like the jobs are awarded, it's being built. Do find that they kind of are still evolving or they kind of that's they were they're just taking their course? Well, so you should be, you want to be creating a set of Asbelts that go on to form a set of record documents that, you know, survive the whole life of the building because that's going to form the foundation for future additions to the work. you know, that's going to help you make decision making process for the next project of similar scope. So yes, we should be updating the specification during the contract or during the construction phase. Again, our platform allows you to do that quite easily because, you know, track changes is a very simple tool, but we have that, but you can also add information. You can incorporate your addenda items. can create an issue for construction set. Yeah, 100%. just going from the bidding phase to that issued for construction set, getting all those changes in, that gives you a nice clear document to take to the job site. And then, yeah, you want to turn over a really good set of record documents to the owner at the end of the job. So you have to incorporate all the information that comes up during construction. You know, you're always going to value engineer some stuff. There's going to be opportunities to save money. And if you can save your client a little bit of money, well, let's do that. blinding tent is going to be achieved. We want a durable floor finish. Well, it doesn't have to be this tile from Italy. It could be local manufacturer with the same performance characteristics. What we're going to save, we're going to expedite the construction schedule, but that change should be noted in the documents at some point. And when I found one that we did, it was a good practice. was like, so you've finished the school, you've issued the COs. When we're doing the next school for that client or any other client is go through the previous change orders. Hey, we're doing another steel school. Let's go through what did we get caught on? Well, we spec the wrong thickness of poly or whatever the case is. really, like you said, kind of go back to that. then you're right. You should be updating it. The question is how many? practice. Totally. 100%. Because you don't want to get burned, especially if it's the same old. same thing twice. Same orders, same issue, like you missed the parapet detail. happened on the last one? Why is it happening on this one too? Doesn't look good. good. Public sector owners are the most difficult ones too because good clients, you great people to be working for but usually it's a total different group of people during design and then they hand it off to another group of people during construction, right? So, and communication between those two groups people may not happen so what the construction people did and changed may not ever go back to the people during the design part of the project, like project planning. They might not even know you did that. So yeah, your record documents have all that information already in it, it's easy to hand that off to the next design team. Yeah, exactly. No, 100%. And it makes the world think. And like, how are you finding the younger generation? we finding, like, cause specs is, not a lot of people, no offense, don't like doing specs. It's very special breed. So. special in quotes. especially quotes. Door hardware too. Exactly. don't think spec writing is presented to young architects as a thing that could be fun or could be interesting. I know I spent my share of time in a classroom and the amount of spec writing that I was taught was like within one course of one semester once back in the 1800s. it's not... It's not looked at as an important part of an architectural education, which is crazy because once you get into the real world, then it's like the only important part of the process. Like, you know, if you've got the world is litigation happy. Right. And I think the specs, you're probably your safety blanket on a lot of on a lot of projects. So I think there's a lot of young people that do are. inclined to appreciate technical things. And that's exactly what spec writing is. It's writing and it's construction, it's technical. And I think that skill set exists in young people. I just don't think it's presented to them in a viable way. But if they understood the scarcity in the profession, I think if a young person is listening to this right now and considering a career somewhere in architecture, construction, design, if you like the way things go together, my god, spec writing is it. exactly. And the details of all you know, like I said, it gets into the fine like like door harbor so interesting too, because it's not just a hinge, right? all the different haven't get into that. And that's totally it's right. And then of course, you get, you know, the same thing with any spring of spec related, you know, again, fire ratings, and that's the whole another realm and making sure that this is being followed. And I totally agree. Like, you know, it's It's never going to be running out of spec writers, but like you said, the scarcity is very true. And to the point if someone's struggling and trying to find that, start in their architectural career, because office is, why not look at specs? Start getting into that. might be out of line saying this, so don't get mad at me about this. the physical part of the podcast. There comes it. you get in, you're attracted to architecture, think for the glamour of the end result, right? Correct me if I'm wrong. There's not a lot of glamour in spec writing. Yeah, like you don't get to drive by a building with your friends and be like, see that control joint there? It's like, that's me. 0 to 1.7. It's pretty awesome. Way far superior than model 8.1. You know that's got glass fiber reinforced sheathing underneath that brick veneer. I'm picturing like somebody going out on a first date or something. I designed that building like, no, you know what's behind that brick? Let me tell you the world and the stories I could tell you. Did you know what that air cavity behind that brick is actually doing for that building right now? And do you know what it was gonna be before I got on the project? Yeah, I pull over and tell you. So that whole part of being a spec writer and being part that like that technical sort that go to technical source in an office environment because spec writers learn a little bit about everything. Enough to be dangerous in conversation with someone. So, you know, when I was doing construction admin for projects that I'd been part of building the contract documents, I'd show up on site and I'd, where's your storage room? Where's your product storage room? Contractor looked at me kind of funny and I'd go and I'd walk around and I could tell by the bags of installation that that was not in the spec. Why is that installation on the job site? Where are going to use that? So I had contractors, they see me coming and they're like, man, okay, here's the spec writer. Even the paint, cans of paint, I know if we didn't spec that manufacturer that, know, this is going on the list guys. So we're having a meeting tomorrow, let's talk about all the products that are on this job site that aren't in the contract. And I've always felt like somebody's giving you a list of things to do. isn't it, shouldn't that just be followed? Like, isn't it easier to follow the list that you've been provided versus having to find substitutions or something else to use instead of the thing that they told you to use? and I agree like people have heard that have listened to the show like I hate alternates because it just opens up the door for oh Shoot, I didn't think about that and like a good example was a basketball hoop, right? Where we had this basketball hoop come down But then also adjust in height too so you could change the regulations and that kind of stuff Well an alternate got approved to all the alternate didn't have that and it's like now it's a fight to get that Oh, that's more money or eight and it's like or like I said, or you change a mechanical unit in the breaker side change and you gotta be really careful with your wording when you do that so because the electrical may not realize he needs a few more breakers right It just speaks to the industry too, right? I hope it's non-industry people listen to your podcast as well to just get a sense of like, it's not just like an architect draws a picture on a piece of paper, hands it to a contractor, they shake hands, he gets to work and magically a building's done. How nuanced the entire multi-year process can be on getting anything from an idea to keys handed over. It's so deep, everything is. on that hinge. like, how many people even realize that that is a term or an option or something that would even, I don't know, it's just a hint. Exactly, and like I said, it goes beyond those nitty-gritty things. And that's why you were saying, like when that spec book, it's a big book. It's substantial and it's, you you see them on site and they're just what it is. But yeah, but like you said, it's nice it gives direction, you've specified it and we just don't want to, again, as the architect, they're ensuring that the drawings are being met and the specs are being met. Because that is the job when it comes to CA at the end of the day. It really is. So wrapping up, because I know we've got drinks and wine and time and more networking happening up in a couple hours here, but we all can agree that specs drawings, they go hand in hand, they got to support each other, they got to talk, you need the spec writer. Any kind of final closing thoughts on that? Specifications in the drawings should be complementary. when they're conflicting, then you're going to have a problem. So, you know, everybody should have a good internal auditing process before they put a set of documents out for bids. Whether you're using your own internal checklist or you're using some of the solutions that we offer within our platform, that can't be overlooked. That process can't be overlooked. If you get pushed into a corner, you got to get something out quick. You got a three-week bidding phase maybe to close down some of those air those omissions or conflicts but yeah spend spend time preparing good documents and I think the job will go a lot smoother. Yeah, I see the whole process as really collaborative, right? So to have... Nobody's working in isolation, right? Your drawings, your architect should be talking to your spec writer, should be talking to your engineer, because those, again, those difficult conversations during the design phase, whether there's internal conflict or you want it your way, he wants it his way, just put all that stuff to rest while we still have time. Because once it's done, it's gone, it's in somebody else's hands. conversations are a lot worse during the construction phase. Yeah And again, been there, done that, you know, it sucks. It really does. I'm too, like, keep telling, like, junior staff and everything, like, I find there's such a resistance of putting, like, dimensions on drawings. I'm like, do it because it takes you click, click, done, versus when it comes out in RFI, I got to take and formulate the response and it's a half an hour. Just do it. It's not like you're going to be penalized for putting that on now. It is what it is. Either I do it or you do it. It doesn't matter. drawn to a dimension. deserves a dimension. So it's just funny how some are but no hands down Where can we find you guys? Where are you? Where you located again? So the first place people usually stop to find us is our website, rib-software.com. But if you just Googled spec link, you'll find us. I know personally I'm more than happy to connect online on LinkedIn or any other platform that people want to reach out on. I'm always happy to have conversations and chat with people. So yeah, LinkedIn or on our website is a good way to go. Jason, are you all over the social side too? I'm sort of the introverted spec writer that's special in quotes, right? So, you know, I like to do my job and I don't put myself out there, but, you know, Dory's, you know, has a special role within our Canadian business is to make those connections and, you know, make us easier to find and I support him however I can. So if you can get hold of Dory, you can get hold of me. Yeah, exactly. There you go. No, well, thank you guys so much for being here. It did and I get tied in and I again for the listeners like they will learn what specs are like that and I can be about I already know about it. But for the ones that again, I find a lot of younger generation are listening because again, no one talks about the CIA side of things. And specs is kind of almost one of those things that you kind of get into like what the heck is this book? Yeah. Well, yeah, that's that's falling. Oh, that's interesting. Look through it is like, oh, I have no idea what this is saying. I'll add to that too. So I host the webinar that we do called Spec Talk and we've done dedicated episodes for young architects or young professionals to be exposed to spec writing. So if there's a takeaway from today, that'd be a good one. It's a wonderful career. Yeah, exactly. So, well, I think that wraps up today. Conferences are a go. We're going to see each other again and over and over and we're going to totally do this again. But it's been fun. but last but not least, architects keep designing and contractors keep making those blueprints reality. We'll see you on the next one. you